From: PhaedrusWolf@aol.com
Date: Fri Dec 03 2004 - 03:36:58 GMT
In a message dated 12/2/04 9:50:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hampday@earthlink.net writes:
You may think of it that way. But then Quality has to be the primary cause;
else, where does the self come from? You can't have experience without a
subject and an object, which means you must account for differentiation in
order to explain creation. The MoQ does not.
Hi Ham,
The creation simply comes from the Quality. Quality is in my view,
'Nothingness', Oneness, Absolute, Being, God, Allah, or Creator. As I stated, (and
possibly hasn't been posted yet(?)) Pirsig does not like the use of God or Allah
for the reasons that religion has evolved into a culture in which the "Word'
is cause for harm, such as in 'Holly Wars'.
Your Essence is interesting, but as you said cannot be proven, and must be
taken on faith. This is the essence of religion, it must be taken on faith. As
you have correctly stated, everything cannot be determined scientifically.
Religion is included in 'Social' in the MOQ. Intellect cannot deny social, nor
can social deny intellect. (in the MOQ)
Something that you hit on, the suspension of ego in your thesis fits in with
what I had stated prior to this thread. The self you speak of is split in
'Big Self' and 'Small Self' by Pirsig. The 'Big Self' would be this
'Nothingness' in Buddhism (in Pirsig's view).
Where Pirsig has obviously taken Buddhism as his preferred religious view,
you have taken Christianity(?)
It is my belief that God is too big for any single religion. If we could
take the best of all religions, as opposed to deny any worth of any other
religion, then we might find this 'Knowledge' you say we are denied until we are
united with our Creator.
Whether or not your 'Essence' holds the key, I cannot say, but do not see
the need for the term in science, but also see that you do not need the term
'Quality' in religion.
It was a great attempt on your part to satisfy what is not seen as
reasonable in the part of metaphysics as a replacement 'Value' which is missing in the
Quantum Physics you speak of.
If you will permit me an observance, it appears that your thesis offered as
an academic paper as it does not lend itself to the masses, but only the few
academicians. In achieving academic excellence, you must suspend your biases
toward proving your hypothesis, and be disinterested in the outcome of your
study.
It appears you are leaning more toward creative excellence in that you only
use what agrees with your hypothesis in an attempt to provide your thesis with
agreeable offerings from the philosophers you mentioned; most of which taken
in full context of their philosophies would not agree.
This is not meant as criticism, but just to make the point that if you are
going to pass off this Essence in academia, you might want to take into
consideration that others in academia are quite knowledgeable of the works of the
philosophers you mention. If you are not interested in passing it off in
academia, you might want to bring it down to a more fifth grade dialogue, as most
would not understand what you are saying, especially in the first part.
It is my belief that if I cannot explain in on a fifth grade level that I am
most likely not doing anyone any good, and possibly don't understand it
myself. Should this reality be understandable only by the few academicians, or
all?
At least know we agree on 'Ego'. In any religion, East or West, suspending
the ego places you in touch with the Source, and is what brings you closest to
this 'Essence' or 'Quality'.
I believe if you will read all of what was written by Pirsig, you might see
a lot of what you say agrees with what he does, except he has a contempt bias
toward Western religion, and you have a favorable one.
Just some thoughts.
Chin
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