From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Mon Dec 06 2004 - 00:27:05 GMT
On 5 Dec 2004 at 16:08, Platt Holden wrote:
> msh says:
> You're being deliberately obtuse in order to be contrary, or at
> least I hope your obtuseness here is deliberate. Have you ever
> considered patenting this discursive technique? You could sell it
> in a package along with the Platteral Shift and the Holden
> Circularity.
Why you find it necessary to open up with a pack of gratuitous
insults is beyond me, so I'll leave that to the psychiatrists to
unravel..
msh says:
Oh, c'mon. Do I have to use smiley faces every time I'm pulling your
leg? After all the exchanges we've had?
> But I'll go one more round, in case you really are interested in my
> opinion. Any state interested in equal protection of the rights of
> ALL its citizens will outlaw the acts you mention, so the state
will
> be enforcing legal not moral standards. As I've said below and
> elsewhere, guidelines for determining what should be illegal may
> come from a variety of moral standards, or simply from reason
alone.
platt:
Rights of citizens are moral concerns. If you don't believe me, check
with Pirsig.
msh says:
Who said they weren't? Now you're using "concerns" where before we
were talking about "standards." This is Platteral Shift.
> platt:
> Two problems with the golden rule. 1) It provides moral guidance
> only when one has made a previous moral judgment of how others
> should treat oneself.
>
> msh says:
> Why is this a problem? Before deciding on a course of action I
> simply ask myself: "Will the effects of my action impact another in
> a way that I would view as negative, were I in his place?"
platt:
What you "view as negative" is a moral decision. Let's hope you're
not a masochist.
msh says:
The fact that some people are mentally ill is one excellent reason
for NOT allowing the Golden Rule, or any other rules subject to
personal interpretation, to be used as anything more than a guiding
standard in developing society's laws. The ultimate arbiter of laws
to be enforced by the state should be truly representative Intellect,
via the free and open and thorough exchange of ideas.
> platt:
> 2) It cannot be used to derive judgments concerning one's moral
> duties to oneself, for example, not committing suicide.
>
> msh says:
> It's not meant to assist with such judgements. In fact, the phrase
> "one's moral duties to oneself" is meaningless, unless one already
> believes in an absolute moral authority. In which case there'd be
> no need for the Golden Rule, and this whole discussion would become
> dizzyingly circular. Which you would find satisfactory, I'm sure.
> :-)
platt:
Drug overdosing is meaningless?
msh says:
It is morally meaningless in a world consisting of one person, unless
you are claiming the existence of a moral authority external to that
person.
In a world where the person's overdose would have a negative impact
on others, say his family or loved ones, then of course his action is
morally meaningful. But this stems from his moral responsibility to
others, not to himself.
platt:
I keep asking on what basis a group should decide what are good moral
ideas besides the MOQ and I guess your answer is the golden rule and
authority, although you seem to reserve the final say so to whatever
the individual decides is a "good idea."
msh says:
Not quite. I've suggested the Golden Rule as a guiding standard, but
certainly not the final arbiter, in the intellectual and dynamic
development of society's laws.
platt:
At least you offer an answer to the question which few others have
even attempted. For that, I thank you.
msh says:
You're welcome. :-)
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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