From: Phaedrus Wolff (PhaedrusWolff@carolina.rr.com)
Date: Mon Dec 13 2004 - 02:55:48 GMT
Chin said:
I would find it quite difficult not to see Socrates as a mystic, and I could
carry this argument further if needed, but I feel the answer to the idea of
Socrates or other mystics might come from Western or Eastern definition of
'Mystic' -- or maybe even how we define mystic as dependent on each of our
different cultures that make up Western or Eastern thought. I think maybe I
am defining mystic as something other than 'sense' intuition which confuses
intuition as I see it, sense the word 'sense' comes from an already defined
experience, and may be where Pirsig says Western thought confuses intuition.
Raw intuition would appear to me to be a form of mysticism as it holds no
limits to what is taught, or what Socrates called 'Imitative poetry'.
dmb says:
Well, for the sake of clarity and for the sake of MANAGABLE parameters, let
me just ask you to explain Socrates' mysticism as it compares to what Pirsig
has said about it. I think we agree on this, but it would be nice to see
somebody make the case just to see what it might look like. I'm thinking
that Pirsig's lengthy discussion of insanity and mysticism would shed lots
of light on the divine madness Plato wrote about. At least for starters.
Hi dmb,
This is an exteme task, but I do love Socrates, or Plato's account of
Socrates, as well as Xenophon's account of Socrates, so I will accept the
challenge.
It should keep me quite for a while.
Thanks,
Chin
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: MD Is the MoQ still in the Kantosphere?
> Sam, Chin, MSH and all MOQers:
>
> Phaedrus Wolff said:
> Socrates is my favorite mystic. The way he defended himself in the
Apology,
> and the way he faced death in Phaedo by themselves show a man who's fear
was
> absent from the hear-and-now, prior to any Bibles being written.
Throughout
> the stories of Socrates we know he hears divine voices, and he goes into
> deep trance states, but out of these deep trance states seems to come
> nothing to add to the dialogues as to the nature of the current dialogues.
> There is no denial that Socrates thoughts came from intuition -- is there?
> Would you not describe intuition as Mystic? (I'm not posing this question
as
> a statement, but a question) Throughout the dialogues, he spoke of
> immorality in the form of a soul and reincarnation.
>
> dmb says:
> It entirely depends on what you mean by "intuition". If you were refering
to
> a hunch or a feeling, I'd say no. But since you're talking about
mysticism,
> divine madness, and being the wisest of all for knowing that he didn't
know
> anything, then I'd have to say yes....
>
> Chin (PW) continued:
> I think some of our problems with the way we look at the ancients is that
we
> are looking at them in a Western 'intelligence' mastery as opposed to an
> Eastern 'spirituality' mastery. If we look at Socrates as a spiritual
master
> (midwife), and he himself claims this in some of the dialogues,
"Theatetus"
> being one of the strongest, then he is saying that his students (disciples
> or whatever you want to call them) do not learn from him. He says
something
> to the nature of their concepts are born into their own minds and not from
> his, through a spiritual awakening from the silence of the mind.
>
> dmb replies:
> Yes! I have been investigating the background of Socrates world for
reasons
> unrelated to this forum. (I've been looking into the myth of Orpheus for
> about four years.) And it seems that the ancient Greeks in that period
> leading up to the Sophists and Plato and all that Pirsig discusses were
> positively saturated with mystery cults. They had a highly developed
> "technology" for spiritual transformation. I learned that the Pythagorians
> were actually mystics who were heavily steeped in Orphic literature.
Looking
> back at them we had only seen numbers and geometry, but music, poetry and
> mysticism were just as big in their thinking. If this notion is new to
> anyone, you're not alone. Its at least partly based on archeological
> discoveries we simply did not have before and there seems to be a shift in
> the scholarship, as a result or as a co-incidence I do not know.
>
> Chin said:
> I would find it quite difficult not to see Socrates as a mystic, and I
could
> carry this argument further if needed, but I feel the answer to the idea
of
> Socrates or other mystics might come from Western or Eastern definition of
> 'Mystic' -- or maybe even how we define mystic as dependent on each of our
> different cultures that make up Western or Eastern thought. I think maybe
I
> am defining mystic as something other than 'sense' intuition which
confuses
> intuition as I see it, sense the word 'sense' comes from an already
defined
> experience, and may be where Pirsig says Western thought confuses
intuition.
> Raw intuition would appear to me to be a form of mysticism as it holds no
> limits to what is taught, or what Socrates called 'Imitative poetry'.
>
> dmb says:
> Well, for the sake of clarity and for the sake of MANAGABLE parameters,
let
> me just ask you to explain Socrates' mysticism as it compares to what
Pirsig
> has said about it. I think we agree on this, but it would be nice to see
> somebody make the case just to see what it might look like. I'm thinking
> that Pirsig's lengthy discussion of insanity and mysticism would shed lots
> of light on the divine madness Plato wrote about. At least for starters.
>
>
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