From: ml (mbtlehn@ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon Dec 13 2004 - 06:33:37 GMT
Hello Platt/MSH;
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: MD The Quality of Capitalism?
> DMB, MSH, All:
>
<snip>
>
> > Pirsig's point here is to explain why capitalist systems preform better
and
> > that reason is UNKNOWN to the capitalists and have include only as a
lucky
> > mistake.
>
> You can shout UNKNOWN and lucky mistake to the capitalists until the cows
> come home, but that doesn't change the fact capitalism is a better
> economic system because it's more Dynamic..
mel:
In economic systems Pirsig tackled a rather larger subject
than he was ready for...in the execution of business, especially
small business, which is the majority of the movement of the
economy, the level of operation is Intellectual and not just Social.
For far too long we have accepted the NOW deliberate lie that
our poly-morphus market system is Capitalist, which it only to
20% is. This makes the poly-morphus market system a far more
significant INTELLECTUAL system that Pirsig presumed.
We have a competitive system of intellectual market assumptions
that is freighted with far more total intellect than any Socialist type
of system ever imagined. It is misleading to refer to the Socialist
as intellectual after such a comparison.
The error comes in at confusing the resultant target with the process.
Pirsig assued that the intellectual choice of a target for an economy was
more significant than the intellectual input. It is however, the other way
around. The emergent effect of the intellectual density in a poly-morphus
market economy is far in excess of anything centrally planned.
This coupled with the Dynamic is crushing, at our stage of econ
evolution...it is far from perfect, but like Churchill's statement on
Democracy, it is the worst possible save ALL OTHERS.
>
> > Secondly, you almosts always ignore or discount Pirsig's repeated
> > assertions that capitalism is morally inferior to socialism and that it
is
> > at an entirely different and less evolved level of quality.
>
> As Pirsig says, because capitalism is more Dynamic than socialism, it is
> morally superior to socialism and at a higher evolved level of quality,
> the level of Dynamic morality.
>
mel: morality runs in two vectors...Higher level AND to the DYNAMIC
> > And finally,
> > there is the problem of ignoring the real world effects of capitalism.
Not
> > only is authority and power concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, but
> > corporations have enormous influence over our laws and elections, very
> > often achieveing policiies that benefit themselves at the expense of the
> > American people. The current administration has taken crony capitalism
to
> > new lows, even appointing industry insiders as the chief watchdog of
those
> > same industries. This is very close to fascism as the founder defined
it.
> > That's why Chomsky seems so contemptuous of the free-market faithful.
Such
> > believers insist that we are all liberated by the power to shop, but the
> > facts on the ground tell us the opposite story.
>
> That's just left-wing dogma. I'll take Pirsig over Chomsky and his fellow
> anti-capitalists as to what is real and what isn't any day.
>
mel:
There are far MORE hands exerting influence in a broad-
based ownership structure, than in a centralized politburo.
Of course corporations try to exert influence...that is another
check against untrammeled centralized authority...tens-of-
thousands of corporations with BILLIONS of owners in the
aggregate. Of couse since the stockholders are both the
American people and any foreign stock holders, that is a pretty
large consensus group; some win, some lose.
From Jefferson or so onward, it seems that Cronyism is
about as stable a phenomenon as I can see in history.
Show me the GNP delta so represented, and I will be
open to listening to such irrelevancy.
You fail to see that fascism is GOv't telling the economy
how to behave, where the rather more free markets
squeak when stepped on and try to direct the government.
(The dynamic tells the static where to go...) this is
converse or obverse to fascism , depending on where
you pivot.
Chomsky is irrelevant to anything but his own glory.
He does not have enough awareness to address MoQ
on its own terms, so he is just a sadly fallen SOM figure
who should pass unremarked into the ash can of history.
Leave him be.
> > And don't even get me started on advertising and propaganda. One need
not
> > be an elitist to see that the Public Relations gurus can play the public
> > like a fiddle. They have tapped into Frued and Jung and have developed
> > techniques to which nobody is immune. And that's really what we have.
Its
> > not capitalism. Its consumerism. Chomp, Chomp, Gobble, til its all gone.
> > You know the problem with unsustainable systems? That's right, they
can't
> > be sustained.
>
> Yes, I know. You liberals believe the public can be played "like a fiddle"
> because they're too dumb to know what's good for them. It was this, your
> arrogance, as much as anything that led to your ignominious defeat in the
> recent election, and why you are now looking at chicken entrails in an
> attempt to figure out how you can regain power. With luck, your role
> models Michael Moore, George Soros and Howard Dean will prevail in taking
> over the Democrat party, assuring your continued dwelling in the
> wilderness for another generation.
>
mel:
Propaganda is like advertising in that it proves that it only
takes a couple of points of IQ and enthusiasm by the motivated
to overcome the lazy and stupid. Many folks however, are more
savy than to blindly follow in drooling crowds... they roll eyes
and choose between the least worst options offered...
Using Freud and other Psyco-babblists is a very deliberate
intellectual choice with intellectual tools. Consumerism is a
large portion of our poly-morphic system. (30-40%)
The ANGRY Demos are simply pissed because it takes
so much effort to differentiate themselves in the imagination
from their all-but-twins in the Repub party. 99.9% agreement
Same the other way...
Entropy shows that there ARE NO SUSTAINABLE SYSTEMS.
However, personalities who are more interested in auto-fellating
their EGO's than serving the electorate with dikigence are a
far cry from anything intent on aiding sustainability.
thanks--mel
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