Re: MD Is Morality Relative?

From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Thu Dec 16 2004 - 15:07:48 GMT

  • Next message: Arlo J. Bensinger: "Re: MD Is Morality Relative?"

    Platt,

    Pirsig - The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human
    imagination.
    Arlo - is troubled by this.
    Mark - This comment has always troubled me.
    Platt - The comment troubles me, too.

    I think your readings need to be more subtle.
    It troubled me too, for about 5 seconds.
    This is early in ZMM (as Mark goes on to say) before he has cast Lila's
    metaphysical concrete around his MoQ.
    He's stating the problem - not asserting a literal axiomatic truth.
    Stating the problem in such a stark way (in a work of literature, not a
    scientific journal) that pedants like Platt will notice :-)

    Mark - Is Pirsig an Idealist or an Empiricist or what?
    Platt - As said, it's pure Idealism.

    Well yeah, if you take it literally as an isolated assertion.
    I say he is pragmatic (being a pragmatist, but without a capital P round his
    neck)
    Gaps between experiences are modelled by the imagination.
    The real "out-there" may as well (pragmatically) not exist, if it cannot be
    supported by experience.
    No amount of metaphysics makes it any more likely to exist except at points
    where it touches experience.

    Being run over by a truck is supported by experience, Platt.
    Just not mine fortunately :-)

    Ian.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
    Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:59 PM
    Subject: Re: MD Is Morality Relative?

    > Hi MSH, All:
    >
    > > >arlo said:
    > >
    > > All this talk of absolutes also reminds me of the "law of gravity"
    > > part of the chatauqua. "So there was this 'absolute', sitting there,
    > > having no mass of its own, no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind
    > > because there wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space
    > > either, no anywhere - this 'absolute' still existed?"
    > >
    > > Pirsig continues:
    > > "Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. Laws of logic, of
    > > mathematics are also human inventions, like ghosts. The whole blessed
    thing
    > > is a human invention, including the idea that it 'isn't' a human
    invention.
    > > The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination."
    > >
    > > msh asks:
    > > Yes, this comment has always troubled me. "The world has no
    > > existence whatsoever outside the human imagination." Is Pirsig an
    > > Idealist or an Empiricist or what?
    >
    >
    >
    > > I can see how the laws of nature
    > > and logic might be said to exist in our imaginations, but everything? Is
    > > this just some poetic enthusiasm from way back, near the beginning of
    ZMM,
    > > to support the ol' ghosts around the campfire setting?
    > >
    > > What do y'all think he means? Is there something OUT THERE, or not?
    >
    > Good question. I doubt if Pirsig would step in front of a truck claiming
    > it had no existence other than in his imagination.
    >
    > Platt
    >
    >
    >
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