RE: MD Mysticism or Cosmic Debris?

From: David Buchanan (
Date: Sun Dec 19 2004 - 18:47:30 GMT

  • Next message: MarshaV: "Re: MD Mysticism or Cosmic Debris?"

    Mark, Sam and all MOQers:

    Mark Steven Heyman said:
    ...... I'm a little skeptical of the "professional" aspect of the
    revelation process. Whether it's DMB's recommendation of the web-
    omnipresent Wilber or Sam's preferred hierarchy of power and ritual,
    or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi taking beneath his wing the Fab Four, there
    is to me a slight sense of hucksterism about anyone suggesting an
    extremely low ratio of shepherd to sheep, and, little lamb, have I
    got the shepherd for YOU!

    dmb replies:
    I share your skepticism actually and I'm quite surprized at your impression
    to the contrary. In fact, last weekend I posted some quotes and thoughts in
    the "code of art thread" that should have precluded any such impression.
    Lets take a look at the central idea again. Maybe you recall this remarkably
    Pirsigian quote from Campbell...

    "Let me recall at this point Nietzsche's statements regarding classic and
    romantic art. He identified two types or orders of each. There is the
    romanticism of true power that shatters contemporary forms to go beyond
    these to new forms; and there is, on the other hand, the romanticism that is
    unable to achieve form at all, and so smashes and disparages out of
    resentment. And with respect to classicism likewise, there is the classicism
    that finds an achievement of the recognized forms easy and can play with
    them at will, expressing through them its own creative aims in a rich and
    vital way; and there is the classicism that clings to form desperately out
    of weakness, dry and hard, authoritarian and cold. The POINT I WOULD MAKE -
    and which I believe was also Nietzsche's - is that form is the medium, the
    vehicle, through which life becomes manifest in its grand style, articulate
    and grandiose, and that the mere shattering of form is for human as well as
    for animal life a disaster, ritual and decorum being the structuring forms
    of all civilization."

    dmb continues:
    In spelling out the two types or orders here, we see the idea that those who
    are unable to achieve form and all and those who cling to form desperately,
    "authoritarian and cold" are both of the lower order. And likewise, those
    who can "shattter contemporary forms to go beyond" and those who can "play
    with them at will" are of the higher order. In terms of your accusation, we
    would say that the land of sheperds and sheep belongs to that lower order.
    Don't you think?

    MSH said:
    I don't want to seem overly cynical about this, but it seems like the
    paths to guided enlightenment are directly proportional to one's
    disposable income, I just don't get the sense that the gurus are
    working the ghettos. ...Anyway, I've started this thread so as not to
    sidetrack the ongoing valuable discussions of mysticism. Thoughts?
    Comments? Attacks or accusations?

    dmb says:
    Well, this gets at another reason why I'm baffled at your impression that I
    am lending any support to Hucksterism or even offering a specific path to
    anything. All I can do here is offer ideas. I've heard there are dudes who
    can achieve advanced states of consciousness by breathing in through his
    right nostril and breathing out through his left nostril - for a few hours.
    And I know a guy who has a guru, but I don't recall ever recommending one
    for Sam or anyone else here. Nor do I have one myself. I just offer ideas
    from books - for free. I don't mind paying for books, although one could
    always go the library and read them for free too. But I like to own books. I
    like to support my favorite bookstore and the authors themselves, who are
    both certainly entitled to be compensated for their efforts - as we all are.
    But I thought that meant I was intellectually curious, and not a sheep or a
    shepard. I thought I was condemning both leaders and the led, and instead
    recommending that we be wolves who wander where we will.

    I think you're just angry because your LTC drives like a girl.

    Just kidding.


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