Re: MD NAZIs and Pragmatism

Date: Sat Feb 08 2003 - 22:53:39 GMT

  • Next message: Elizaphanian: "Re: MD Pirsig's conception of ritual"

    S: Hiya Squonk, (welcome back - you still seem incorrigibly rude, but that's
    your style and you're free to choose it)

    Sq: I have not been rude to you Sam. (Thanks for the welcome.) And rudeness
    has its uses; too much self congratulatory back slapping and, 'Chumminess'
    can help to foster an altogether too comfortable atmosphere?

    S: Plato is our main source for Socratic method - whether we call it irony,
    elenchus or dialectic I think you're being Jesuitical about the distinction.

    Sq: Socrates used elenchus. The other developments, hypotheses and dialectic
    were Plato's. That's pretty much self evident from the dialogues, if you read

    S: (In other words, do you mean that the dramatic form of dialogue was
    invention? Agreed. Is the mode of philosophical argumentation invented by
    Plato? I disagree.) Plato's views on the good came later - they were
    attempts to answer what Socrates had started. My point is about the Socratic
    beginning; to be specific, the search for definitions of ethical terms.

    Sq: Socrates was not so much interested in definitions of ethical terms as
    showing no one has them. In this sense they who did not have ethical
    definitions had no more knowledge than those who receive divine inspiration.
    Plato dallied with definitions but far from conclusively. Words fall apart at
    the joints.

    S: The Athenian polis was run by such thugs that lovers of free speech
    there from all across Greece. The real thugs were the pro-Spartan autocrats
    who overthrew the democracy, who took sustenance from the Socratic attack on
    Athenian values, and who were the cause of Socrates' trial. IMHO Socrates
    bears some responsibility for the subsequent execution.

    Sq: For Socrates, life is preparation for death. That's a bit Upanishadic
    isn't it?

    S: The Platonic conception of love involved taking children away from their
    natural parents and teaching them to deny the body, focussing instead on the
    intellectual ascent to the Forms.

    Sq: Not so. Athenian children habitually beat their fathers and were,
    'Socialised' by successful Males with social status. Socrates denied sex but
    not emotional pleasure.
    Forms are objects of devotion; they are the reality we can have if we allow
    ourselves to be free and bring into existence the most beautiful.

    S: Ultimate source of all totalitarian societies - that's why the Nazi's
    welcomed study of Plato in their textbooks.


    Sq: Plato can be read that way if you are selective. That is unfortunately
    the case with allot of literature? The stoics selected and gave Plato a
    large, 'Rationalistic' tinge, but this is not necessarily the case. There is
    much emotional beauty in Plato's dialogues that Stoics chose not to pay much
    attention to.


    MOQ.ORG -
    Mail Archive -
    MD Queries -

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Feb 08 2003 - 22:53:56 GMT