From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Fri May 06 2005 - 19:48:38 BST
Platt,
> First, thanks for a thoughtful response. Second, how can "spiritual"
> principles become "intellectual patterns?" Seems to me a spiritual
> principle is known through revelation, not reason.
Good point. I'm not quite sure how to answer this, so I'm going to have to "sit
on it" a bit.
> I'm not sure that "Thou shall not kill" is much of an intellectual pattern,
that is, based on an in depth rational analysis of alternatives. Rather, I see
it as a social pattern required to maintain the viability of an in group.
There's no hesitancy in killing members of the out group if the in group is
attacked. The Giant is no Jesus.
I think a strong argument can be made through intellectual reason as to why
"killing" should be prohibited in a society. For example, I don't attribute it
to any divine being, and yet I don't kill people because I don't want to live
in a society where I can be killed. That's just simple reason to me, not divine
mandate (and I believed that long before I read the MOQ).
But your last point is what I mean about adopting bits and pieces of
"Judeo-Christian" morality. Killing "non-Christians" is not considered
"immoral" if it has the "justification" of government. This is what allowed us
to drop napalm on Iraqi citizens during the war... something I personally doubt
Jesus would condone.
But I do think the intellectual level can point to a way out, towards thinking
about global community rather than nationalistic preoccupation. After all, on
the intellectual level there are no Americans and Iraqis, just people. Their
actions may be moral or immoral (and should be applauded or condemned as such),
but as people there is no distinction. When I hear the report of a father who
watched his little girl burned alive by napalm, I am absolutely appalled and
sickened and able to condemn such an act as immoral, whether that father is
American, Iraqi, Chinese, French, Maori, Eskimo, whatever.
> Unless we can appeal to a higher power for moral guidance, are we not
defenseless against the whims of those who wield the coercive power of
government?
I think I'd make the distinction between individuals appealing to a higher power
for their own guidance in resisting external threats (such as coercive
government), and giving that external agency the right to claim it has that
higher power on its side.
That is, I have nothing against any individual Christian or Buddhist or Pagan
from relying on their own "spiritual insights" to resist coercive government. I
have everything against that individual Christian or Buddhist or Pagan from
"becoming" or "validating" the coercive government by making its policies
"God's Will". You are not, in this case, resisting coercive power, you are
merely making it coercive "for" Judeo-Christian morality. All those people who
are not Christian, then, become victims of the oppression you say you are
against.
> Keeping in mind that legislation is coercion, Jesus implored people to act
morally for the sake of their everlasting souls, not for the sake of staying
out of jail. Whether one precludes the other is, of course, highly debatable.
We've had plenty of exchanges to know where each of stands in that debate.
All I meant to show was that we do call for "legislation of the Bible" when it
involves telling others what they can't do. But we refuse it when it entails
telling us what we should do. Whether "any" of it should be legislated, is of
course the big question, and is foundational to what you had asked me (about
Judeo-Christian morality).
>
> > But, talk about "homosexuality", and every Christian around goes
> > screaming for laws to protect us.
>
> Do you have gay marriage in mind?
I think its a good fault line in this discussion. The laws against it are based
soley on it being in violation of biblical morality. And those who are against
it use this as primary evidence on why it should be outlawed.
However, like I said, the biblical morality that tells people to reject
materialism, to feed the poor, heal the sick, shelter the homeless are flat out
refused as "socialism" (when legislated), even though Jesus spent more time on
THAT message than on anti-homosexuality.
To me, that's only using biblical morality to justify power, rather than turning
to it for a true guiding principle. To use it to control, rather than structure
one's own life.
> > (How many people actually keep the Sabbath holy?
>
> Which is why I shy away from legislation to enforce the morality of Jesus
mentioned above.
Precisely, because this one tells *you* what *you* should do, rather than
allowing you to tell *others* what they can't do. I don't mean to sound harsh
with that, but this seems to be the critical distinction made when people call
for the legislation of Judeo-Christian morality.
> What I take away from your answer in general that it's OK to use the Judeo-
Christian basis for morality so long as it isn't used to justify national
interests and doesn't rely for its legitimacy on God. In other words, moral
foundations such as the 10 commandments can be legitimatized by intellect alone
without appealing to any spiritual source. Is that somewhere close to your
position?
Pretty much, although your first comment above gives me pause. I'll have to
think about that some.
> If so, I don't know of any philosophy that deliberately sets out to
> justify Judeo-Christian principles of morality on a strictly rational
> basis. Perhaps you or someone can lead me to such a philosophy.
I think any philosophy that would do this wouldn't seek to justify
"Judeo-Christian principles" soley, as that would be placing philosophy in the
service of supporting one nationalist view. But I think that many of the
principles outlined in the Bible and the Koran and Rig Veda and other spiritual
works could be uniformly supported by a philosophy, yes. Why hasn't it been
done (to my knowledge)? I don't know.
Arlo
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