From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Sun Jul 03 2005 - 13:56:13 BST
> Hi Mark M:
> How can there be a no self without a presupposed self?
>
> Mark 2-7-05: Hello Platt,
> A direct answer to your question: We are events in the
> event stream; the presupposed self is an illusion.
Platt 7-3-05: Hi Mark M:
Then I presume you consider Mark Maxwell to be a happening that has no
particular identity that lasts over time and no self-awareness. Is that
correct?
> Platt:
> Myth? Are you saying the signers of the Declaration of
> Independence and the beliefs they expressed are
> figments of imagination?
>
> Mark 2-7-05:
> No. I am drawing a distinction between how they are
> socially valued and how they are intellectually
> valued.
> For example, you do not talk about concepts such as
> freedom and justice, rather, you talk about a group of
> dead people known as the 'founding fathers.'
> Let us talk about concepts not dead people as if those
> dead people where not everyday folk.
Then I presume you believe it is immoral to hold some people in higher
regard than others. Right?
> What "advances" in political theory do you have in
> mind?
>
> Mark 2-7-05:
> Did i say advances in polital theory?
> No. Once again you are putting words in my mouth.
> Intellectual values have advanced in the last 200+
> years and these have ramifications for concepts such
> as self, ownership, freedom, etc.
Are not concepts about individuals, ownership, freedom, etc. political in
nature? I think so, considering the wars fought over them.
> Platt:
> Are you against owning the chair you sit on, the
> computer you compute on, the plate you eat on, the
> shoes you walk on, the watch you tell time on,
> the phone you talk on, etc., etc. etc., the common,
> ordinary, everyday possessions that support your life?
>
> Mark 2-7-05:
> All these 'objects' are really events in the event
> stream. That is an intellectual postulation, not a
> socially accepted pattern of value.
> It is with intellectual values that i am concerned
> Platt, not social patterns learned through imitation.
> My social conditioning tells me i am an individual who
> owns things. My intellectual enquiery tells me these
> things are illusions.
If intellectual inquiry is based on meanings of a socially-based
language, at what point do you divorce the inquiry from the common
meanings of language? Seems to me if you want to convince somebody of your
intellectual perspective, you have to use language whose meanings she
understands.
> Platt:
> Yes. That's the other side of same coin. A slave
> doesn't own his own
> body.
> Are you against owning the property in your own person
> and the work of
> your person? (Of course, that would require admitting
> to existence of a
> "self.")
>
> Mark 2-7-05:
> All you speak of are relationships between events in
> the event stream. Intellectualy speaking the socially
> learned patterns are simply that: Learned through
> immitating behaviour. You think you own stuff because
> you are immitating those who agree with you.
I agree ownership is a social level value pattern. But so is language and
a other social patterns that support the intellectual level without which
the intellectual level cannot function.
> Platt:
> Am I correct to assume that the highest good in your
> view are "caring
> and
> mutually enriching relationships." If so, what
> political system do you
> believe allows the most freedom to form such
> relationships?
>
> Mark 2-7-05:
> I think this political system must begin with children
> and their education Platt.
> Every effort would have to be made to provide all
> children with a supreme education in Quality as a
> Human right. No child would be denied for any reason.
> When these children grow up, they may change the
> system itself for the better.
The question is, "What political system do you think is best for
enhancing Quality?"
Best,
Platt
>
> regards,
> Mark
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Jul 03 2005 - 14:28:57 BST