From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Fri Jul 22 2005 - 22:29:01 BST
> [Arlo]
> Most of these I see on the list are small, island countries. Certainly
> there would be a sacrifice in infrastructural affordances for anyone moving
> there (not that life in "paradise" wouldn't be worth it!!). What I mean by
> "affordances" (as you ask) are all the infrastructural niceities paid for
> (in some way) by taxes (roadways, libraries, museums, parks, EMT services,
> cable & telephone infrastructures, etc).
>
> But I don't think this is a site for people seeking to move to a "low tax"
> nation. Is it? It seems more like information for those who want to stay
> living in America (or whatever country) but avoid paying taxes there.
> Doesn't that shift the tax burden onto the people who are not wealthy
> enough to use offshore accounts and investments? Doesn't that seem to you
> like "wanting membership in a club" (America) but not wanting to pay the
> "membership fee"?
No doubt your view of motives from the businessman's view is correct. But
the motive of the low tax countries I think is to improve their quality
of life by attracting business. It's like here in Myrtle Beach where the
city fathers are always handing out this tax break or other to attract new
business and development. Of course they say it's to provide jobs and
improve the quality of life. But I suspect they too have an ulterior
motive -- to create a larger tax base so they'll have more money and more
power.
> [Arlo]
> Well, although I think a strong argument can be made that true
> economic-political leverage and power rests in the hands of a few, we can
> agree to disagree on this. However, when President Jeb Bush is inaugurated
> in 2009, we can return to this topic. Agree? :-)
Agree :-)
I'll get back to you on health care and education.
Platt
> [Platt]
> >But, that we agree that an appropriate use of taxes in an MOQ moral
> >society is to provide access to information, assure availability of common
> >lands, and support a protective military constitutes a giant step forward
> >in our discussion IMO. As usual, the devil is in the details. But, for now
> >I glad we've progressed this far! Too bad others (except msh) have been
> >uninterested in the subject to date. All the philosophical-type discussion
> >is fine and dandy, but putting the MOQ to use in the "real world" is where
> >I see its greatest potential for an evolutionary push. (Hope this doesn't
> >trigger an esoteric discussion of the meaning of "real world." :-)
>
>
> [Arlo]
> I, too, Platt, am thinking we've made good progress. Ian had responded to
> this, saying, "We need quality arguments, explanations and persuasions
> comprising more than Aristotelian logic. Until that happens these debates
> just hold too many snags to be worth the effort." I think we have a good
> start, and maybe with some more effort we can formulate something that will
> be more substantive, and hence attractive to other MOQers.
>
> I do think one next big hurdle is addressing the issue of health care, and
> I know from your ongoing exchange with MSH that topic is potentially too
> "heated" to make any progress. Let me ask it this way. "Health services"
> compromise everything from EMT responses to Viagra, from the Red Cross to
> Blue Cross/Blue Shield, from life-saving angioplasty to cancer screenings,
> from skin grafts for burn victims to boob-jobs.
>
> While there are extremists who argue that "everything" in the health-care
> umbrella should be provided "free via-taxation", and those that argue that
> "everything" in the health-care umbrella should be privatized and sold only
> to those with capital-means, I think both of these positions are somewhat
> strawmen-positions. My personal feeling, and I think yours may be too (if I
> understand correctly that you do not object to EMT services being funded by
> tax dollars), is that some health-services should be supported by a
> community, and others should be left to the "free market".
>
> One way to think about this is a continuum from "life saving" to "life
> enhancing". Having an ambulance crew available to perform CPR on a
> heart-attack victim is what I would call "life saving", and so I opt to
> consider this a valid use of community-supported health care. Viagra
> prescriptions I would call "life enhancing", and using our "Freedom is not
> the absence of necessity" I would say this is not a valid use of
> community-supported health care.
>
> The next big one is education, and I will respond to that in separate post
> as promised (I was out riding North Central PA's beautiful state forests
> yesterday :-)).
>
>
> [Arlo had said previously]
> > > But your point is well taken. Freedom is not the absence of necessity.
> > > You've agreed to put something above your computer, and so I will agree
> > > to put this.
>
>
> [Arlo now adds]
> Something that struck me yesterday (while out riding) was that according to
> Csikszentmihaly, "Flow" requires a sustained level of challenge. That is,
> you can't "Flow" if some necessity isn't driving you forward. A cyclist,
> for example, finds flow in those times when her/his current skills are
> being pushed at just the right degree to sustain motivation and push
> her/his skills further. A mathematician will not find flow in solving basic
> addition problems, but in a zone between what s/he knows and that next push
> to something more, a push brought only about by some meaningful necessity
> or goal. I just point this out because I know we've both expressed interest
> in Csikszentmihaly's ideas.
>
>
> [Arlo previously]
> >I would only add that "freedom is the absence of restraints
> > > imposed by external power structures (not just government), in the
> > > willful pursuit of an individual's meaningful goals". That is, it is
> > > not only government that can limit freedom.
>
> [Platt]
> >As said, I fear the power constraints of government much more than those
> >of the private sector. But that the private sector is also capable of
> >doing harm cannot be denied.
>
>
> [Arlo]
> I respect that.
>
> I'll have my thoughts on education out soon.
>
> Arlo
>
>
>
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