Re: MD Undeniable Facts

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Wed Apr 16 2003 - 14:22:43 BST

  • Next message: Matt the Enraged Endorphin: "Re: MD Undeniable Facts"

    Hi Steve, Matt:

    > >> But when someone makes a statement of undeniable fact, that person has
    > >> just introduced a subsidiary context. Instead of Experience as Quality,
    > >> we have "someone's mediated experience" mediated further through
    > >> words--just one of infinite contexts. Would you agree?

    > > Please clarify for me what you mean by "mediated." I've noticed this has
    > > become a very popular word among intellectuals in recent years. It used
    > > to mean "to settle differences between two parties." I don't think that's
    > > your meaning above, but just what sort of behavior the word "mediated"
    > > points to I'm not sure. Perhaps "interfere with" or "translated by?"

    > What I mean is that, first of all, awareness is dependent on a context of
    > static patterns for the individual who experiences.

    Is awareness itself a static pattern in your view? I ask because IMO
    awareness, consciousness, Quality are not "dependent" on any
    individual but exist as the present which never changes and which we
    individuals are born into. The present we are conscious of is never static
    though there are static patterns in the present.

    > What each individual
    > is aware of happens within his or her individual context. Maybe I don't
    > understand what is meant by equating Experience and Quality. I think there
    > must be a distinction between small "s" experience and Quality since one's
    > static patterns determine experience of Experience. Do you make such a
    > distinction?

    In everyday living I agree with you that what we experience is largely
    determined by the static "glasses" we view the world with, those
    glasses being equivalent to a "context." But there are times, rare to be
    sure, when your glasses are suddenly and unexpectedly removed and
    all of DQ "shines through." For that moment you experience
    "transcendence" and lose you separate self sense. "Reality" becomes
    more real than real.
    > Secondly, I can't really communicate my experience to you. I can use words
    > to describe my experience but the words that you receive from me cannot
    > recreate the experience for you. I could never buy into being "stuck in
    > words" because I know that I use words to point to experience, not merely
    > to other words.

    Agree. Unfortunately, postmodern types want us to live in a world of
    words rather than a world of experiencies. To them it's all about
    language, verbiage and spin. I'm with you in asserting as an undeniable
    fact that "the words you receive from me cannot recreate the experience
    for you." But to pomos, your experiences don't count. It's what your
    group agrees on that's more meaningful that your personal experience.
    If you happen to disagree with the group, you're brushed off as
    "outdated" and "useless."

    > You don't want to live with the contradiction of "absolutely no absolutes."
    > Matt is okay with that contradiction. He will continue denying that he
    > ever made such a claim or that such a claim is implicit in his philosophy .

    True. But keep in mind that Matt doesn't believe in objective truth.
    > Matt's philosophy disallows a primary context, a context of not having a
    > context, i.e. DQ, or the possibility of becoming free of all static
    > patterns. He's not willing to live with such a contradiction as a point
    > of view of not having a point of view. You seem to be okay with this
    > contradiction.

    I don't see a contradiction. A point of view only occurs when the view is
    conceptualized. Prior to concepts (and words expressing those
    concepts) is a world of pure direct experience--the primary "context" if
    you will. As you correctly point out, language is derivative from
    experience. Those who see language as the end all and be all live in a
    second-hand world of "vocabularies" and group identities. They never
    experience the reality which "passeth all understanding" because if they
    admitted to such a reality, their argot world would crumble.


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