From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Thu Jul 17 2003 - 03:45:59 BST
Johnny and all you folks,
I will take a crack at it, but remember I am a rooky at this stuff.
Johnny: 1. Doesn't the MoQ say that the 4th level patterns exist on top
of 3rd levelpatterns the way a novel sits on top of a computer? The
intellectual level doesn't sit on top of 2nd level patterns (people).
They don't come out of individuals, they come out of society and are
about society. They help a society find food, not an individual find
food. An individual uses biological patterns of intellegence and
repeats social patterns to find food. Is this wrong? Please address
the novel/computer metaphor as it relates to the 3rd and 4th levels. I
think it clarifies the difference between thinking in a biological sense
and thinking in an intellectual sense.
2. Instead of saying that all the patterns exist as intellectual
patterns of
different levels, isn't it better to use the word consciousness or
awareness
rather than intellect, thus avoiding having to use the confusing phrase
"intuitive intellect" to distinguish consciousness from enduring ideas,
and
saving the term intellect to use for thoughts about society, thoughts
only
possible after the establishment of the third level?
Mati: I have following the discussion on "Intellectual Level" with
interest. For myself I have come to believe that the "Intellectual
Level" is one's capacity to reason and rationalize the realities they
experience. As far as a novel is concerned it is a work of reason and
rationalizations, whether it covers inorganic, biological, social or
rationalizations themselves. This is perhaps why the Nazis loved their
book burnings, the possible intellectual (reason/rationalization)
threaten the social reality the Nazi tried to promote. This brings me
to my rub as "Thinking" as intellect. We do, I believe think in other
patterns without necessarily reasoning. IE. I go out to dinner and I
see an attractive woman, my biological thinking and my interest is
perked (Biological Thinking). I quickly suppress my interest to not
offend my wife. (Social Thinking). After all this thinking I am hungry
and order from the menu (Back to Biological Thinking). I reflect and
reason/rationalize on this all and try to understand this entire
experience and it's meaning, and perhaps write a novel(Intellectual
Level).
I reflect on Pirsig's quote: "One answer is to fudge both mind
and matter and the whole question that goes with them into another
platypus called "Man." "Man" has a body (and therefore is not himself a
body) and he also has a mind (and therefore not himself a mind). But if
one asks what is this "Man" (which is not of body or mind) one doesn't
come up with anything. There isn't any "man" independent of the
patterns. Man is the patterns.
(Lila, pg. 177-178)
I see MOQ delineating these patterns to explain and for that
matter reason or rationalize, the wide array of reality patterns we
experience.
As far as using "consciousness or awareness rather than
intellect" I am concerned that "consciousness" does not have the
capacity to support our ability to reason values or quality.
Take care,
Mati
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Jul 17 2003 - 03:47:56 BST