RE: MD Lila's Child (SOM)

From: David Buchanan (
Date: Sat Aug 09 2003 - 19:39:23 BST

  • Next message: MATTHEW PAUL KUNDERT: "MD A Brief Proposal for a 5th Level"

    Steve and all eaters:

    Steve said:
    > We should support intellect's True over society's Good and we should
    > support society's law over the law of the jungle whenever a lower level
    > threatens a higher one. I think the MOQ message runs far deeper than to
    > suggest that we be more intellectual. It says that it's moral to take a
    > break from philosophical discussion to have some lunch which violates
    > favoring intellectual values over biological one. The MOQ says it's
    > moral to do so because without biological health there is no brain to do
    > the philosophical thinking.

    dmb says:
    Let's do lunch. Lunch is moral - unless you're Jeffery Dahmer. ;-) But
    seriously, I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should, or even could,
    abandon everything except 4th level values. As I understand it, such a thing
    is impossible. There can not be such a thing as intellectual values in
    isolation. In spite of its descreteness, it is also dependent on the
    previous levels for its very existence. Intellectual values detatched from
    its origins would be like a bodyless head floating in space. The moral codes
    merely say that when the levels come into CONFLICT, then the higher value is
    supposed to win. Eating lunch violates nothing of the kind.

    > To me being as moral as possible means aspiring to apply the MOQ system
    > of morality. To aspire to intellectual values sounds empty to me in the
    > way that I understand intellectual values. I can't imagine what it
    > would mean to embody the value of the like of 2+2=4, though to live the
    > MOQ system of morality would include defending moral status of "2+2=4"'s
    > truth against some church of bad arithmetic.

    dmb says:
    Empty? Don't forget that Pirsig says things like freedom, rights and
    democracy as products of the intellect. Do you think these are empty? I
    don't. I think they are well worth defending. It seems to me that the
    intellect's moral dimension CAN be seen. Think of curiosity, creativity,
    clarity, open-ness, the honesty and discipline it requires. Think of the
    ways it has improved our living conditions and broadened our horizons. Think
    of the assertion that the Buddha can be found in the gears of a machine just
    as well as the lotus flower. Empty? I totally disagree. Of all the things
    that could be called "empty" intellectual values would be at the bottom of
    my list. George Bush's head would be at the top. :-)

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