From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Fri Aug 15 2003 - 15:12:59 BST
Hi Platt, Matt (and Johnny)
Paul quoted:
"It is important for an understanding of the MOQ to see that although
'common sense' dictates that inorganic nature came first, actually
'common sense' which is A SET OF IDEAS, has to come first. This 'common
sense' is arrived at through a web of SOCIALLY APPROVED EVALUATIONS of
various alternatives. The key term here is 'evaluation', i.e. quality
decisions. The fundamental reality is not the common sense or the
objects and laws approved of by common sense but the approval itself and
the quality that leads to it." Lila's Child Note 97
Platt:
Love the quote. It's vital.
Matt:
Whoa! Whoa! Let's all take a second to catch our breathe here folks.
Is it just me or did I just see Platt give the thumbs up to
intersubjective agreement?
On a related note, I do love the quote, which as far as I can tell has
Pirsig interpreting objectivity as intersubjectivity
Paul:
I don't think that interpretation is entirely correct. His words are
"socially approved evaluations". Broadly, in the west this refers to the
scientific method with a general disdain for knowledge gained solely by
intuition. In the orient, more credence is given to immediate experience
and the aesthetic and emotional content which comes with it. Social
institutions are vital in that they provide the education, funds,
support and authority to make and apply such evaluations.
So the "evaluation" is performed intellectually (with the inherent
quality decisions), but its validity is subject to the approval of
methods and the associated authorities. The confused conclusions of
pragmatism seem to originate from a lack of discernment between social
and intellectual patterns. Once this discernment is made we can discuss
the "web of socially approved [intellectual] evaluations of alternative
[explanations]" with more clarity and explanatory power than making a
substitution of "popularity" for "truth".
Matt:
..but I wish Pirsig hadn't said, "It is important for an understanding
of the MOQ to see that although 'common sense' dictates that inorganic
nature came first, actually 'common sense' which is A SET OF IDEAS, has
to come first."
The whole "come first" part I think leads to pointless chicken and egg
squables. We will never get to the bottom of which came first.
Paul:
We will, Quality comes first ;-)
Cheers
Paul
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