RE: MD Intellectually Nowhere

From: David Buchanan (
Date: Sat Aug 16 2003 - 23:54:01 BST

  • Next message: MATTHEW PAUL KUNDERT: "Re: MD A metaphysics"

    Bodvar and all:

    Bo said:
    My "early-Christianity" allusion asked for some acid remark, but new
    levels, divided levels; reduced levels, collapsed levels; sub-levels;
    subtle "intellects" are suggested in every other message without much
    ado while my SOL interpretation sounds like a perversion. I can
    assure you that it is the revolutionary MOQ I try to preserve. In ZMM it
    is said (and drawn in diagrams) that the intellectual reality is the S/O
    one, and in LILA you know that the SOM=Intellect implications are

    dmb says:
    OK. Like I've said, I think SOLAQI is a good idea taken way too far. But
    rest assured, I very often protest against added, collapsed and otherwise
    distorted versions of the MOQ's levels. Never seen one that deserved
    anything less than contempt. I think they are invariably based on
    misconceptions. I just can't tell you how much it buggs me.

    Bo said:
    You may want to free yourself from my embrace, but by rejecting the
    "manipulation of symbols" intellect you have joined the S/O intellect
    "camp" - there is no middle ground here. Your good sense of logic
    has also led you to defend the social reality and by so doing the
    intellectual level automatically becomes the S/O.

    dmb says:
    I honestly don't understand this. How does disagreement with those who would
    confuse the top tow levels lead me into the S/O intellect camp? And what is
    the S/O intellect camp? There is no middle ground between what and what? How
    does my defense of the social level automatically become S/O? I really think
    you have to be specific. What did I ever say that leds you to this
    conclusion? I mean, why not respond to something specific that I wrote? This
    is not an evasion. I swear. I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

    Bo said:
    The interest in detached deliberations on whatever topic may vary
    strongly among individuals - thanks God - but intellect dominates the
    Western culture totally and don't need (much) defense. I see your
    point in viewing the American (and all western states) political system
    Society vs Intellect, but even the most extreme right-wing person
    wouldn't dream of abandoning democracy or any other of "our" values
    i.e: Intellectual values.

    dmb says:
    I disagree. Consider our court appointed President. He seemed perfectly
    happy to disregard the wishes of the voters in Florida and at the UN. The
    administration supported the overthrow of Venezuela's President Chavez, a
    democratically elected leader, just last year. Bush's attorney general, John
    Ashcroft, tried to shut down the polls in Missouri because he was losing the
    election to a dead man. The Republicans in Texas, with support from the
    White House, are trying to overthrow the court's redistricting plan in favor
    of one that will lock the Democrats out. And the Republicans in California
    began a recall drive against that state's Governor a month after they lost
    that election. I could go on all day. Its easy to see an anti-democratic
    streak in America's conservatives. Its a mile wide. Words like "liberal" and
    "intellectual" have become terms of abuse in this country. People who
    disagee with pre-emtive wars based on false intelligence are called
    "traitors" and "America haters". I don't what's going on in Norway these
    days, but this moment, the USA is about half an inch away from fascism. They
    talk about democracy and freedom, but their deeds speak much louder. And it
    is certainly no accident that it is the right-wing cranks around here who
    most often wish to blurr the lines between social and intellectual values,
    cause that's what this political dispute is really all about. Its not just a
    matter of who wins elections. The issue is whether evolution is going to be
    arrested or reversed.

    Bo said:
    I use you phrase ...I basically agree with about Lila Blewitt, she
    does not have any opinion about the value of democracy, free press
    ..etc. they are imperceptible to her, but even so she is
    influenced/dominated by intellect which pervades our societies
    through and through.

    dmb says:
    Again, I disgree. She can't be both oblivious to and dominated by
    intellectual values. That's just a blatant contradiction. The phrase
    "intellectually nowhere" is one Pirsig uses to describe Lila. I am extremely
    frustrated that no one seems able or willing to accept this. I still don't
    see any good reason for such a rejection. His description is consistent with
    the things she says and does. Its consistent with his hierarchy of levels.
    And perhaps most frustrating of all, it is consistent with my experience. I
    never did it on a sailboat, but I've known people like Lila. Not as many as
    I would have liked, but... :-)


    MOQ.ORG -
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 -
    Nov '02 Onward -
    MD Queries -

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Aug 16 2003 - 23:56:45 BST