From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Sun Aug 17 2003 - 20:25:13 BST
Jonathan, Scott, Steve,
I had already responded to Scott before noticing this thread had developed
thanks to Jonathan's defence on this busy Sunday.
Obviously I agree evolution and Darwinism are not literally the same thing -
the latter being a subset of the former. But I do believe the essence of
(neo-)Darwinism is a good metaphor for pretty well all progress in the world
(genetic or memetic) - enough to stop me looking for some transcendent
source of "purpose" or "direction".
Yes, chance is massively at work in the world, but it's not the chance, it's
the selection that tends towards "betterness" as Jonathan said, or "fitness"
as I said. (Quality if you like.)
Steve, you said ...
the MOQ says that evolution aims for quality.
Ian says ...
"aims" is metaphorical
Neither MOQ nor Evolution can aim for anything literally.
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Steve Peterson
Sent: 17 August 2003 14:36
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Chance and natural selection
Jonathan, Scott, Ian,
> Steve
>>> I believe evolution is the best model of any kind of reality.
>>> MOQ layers are a good summary of just such a reality IMHO - stable
layers
>>> building dynamically on layers over many generations.
>>> I see no conflict or paradox between MOQ and Darwin.
It was actually Ian who said that.
Scott:
>> You seem to be equating "Darwinism" with "evolution". Darwinism is
evolution
>> by chance and natural selection. I reject that (and I think the MOQ does
>> too). Quality is not chance.
Jonathan:
> I strongly disagree with Scott - he needs to be careful where he puts the
> word "chance" in the above sentence. Darwinian evolution proceeds by
> mutation and selection. The mutation part has a random direction - or as I
> have said before, its only direction is AWAY from what came before.
However,
> selection has a very definite direction - towards greater survivability,
or
> to put it in quality terms, towards BETTERNESS.
Steve:
I agree with Scott's point that Darwinism does not mean the same thing as
evolution. Darwinism describes a specific mechanism for evolution, as
Jonathan said, of mutation and natural selection which is more consistent
with observation than other theories. I agree with Jonathan's
reconciliation of biological evolution and the MOQ, but I don't think that
the usage of the term Darwinism generally implies any place for quality and
in everyday usage usually means without purpose, without value, without
meaning, and by chance.
Rorty said:
"If Darwin is right, we can no more make sense of the idea of
such a tribunal than we can make sense of the idea that biological evolution
has an aim. Biological evolution produces ever new species, and cultural
evolution produces ever new audiences, but there is no such thing as the
species which evolution has in view, nor any such thing as the 'aim of
inquiry.'"
See, he says that evolution has no aim, whereas Rorty also talks about
chance and luck. I think Rorty
sees the role of chance in evolution in the same way that Scott suggests
that he does. He says there is change and there are new species and
cultures and new ideas, but he wouldn't want us to say there is evolution
toward betterness because he would think to say that we would need a "God's
eye view" from which to judge it all which he says we can't have.
Thanks,
Steve
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