From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Sat Aug 23 2003 - 15:12:12 BST
Dear Steve,
You wrote 01 Jul 2003 00:24:14 -0400:
'I think it's a shame that Wim is away for this discussion'.
I don't think so. You usually present my position very well (e.g. in your 10
Aug 2003 12:09:36 -0400 post!).
We may indeed (as you wrote 27 May 2003 15:34:58 -0400) 'part company on the
idea of applying the idea of awareness to the non-intellectually aware'. You
'infer from ... Experience = Reality and ... Experience is Quality, that all
of reality experiences (i.e. values) as well'.
As I just (23 Aug 2003 15:07:56 +0200) wrote to Sam:
'"An amoebae fleeing acid" can be seen as a pure MoQ description of a
pattern: a pattern that connects movements of the amoebae and rises in
acidity of its immediate surroundings. "An amoebae experiencing acidity and
consequently fleeing it" is a way of describing that requires SOM. Without
SOM (the supposition of a subject and an object) nothing meaningful can be
said about "the experience for the amoebae".'
Discussing whether atoms, amoebas etc. 'are' aware or not seems to me just
as useless as discussing whether they are 'liberal' ('want' to participate
in higher quality patterns of value) or 'conservative' ('want' to stick to
old patterns of value).
I wrote 27 May 2003 09:00:13 +0200:
'Static patterns of value describe determination rather than free choice (as
Dynamic Quality does). We'd better think and describe them in terms of
mechanisms maintaining patterns that embody value.'
You replied 27 May:
'I see no reason why it's better to think of the world as mechanistic. I
would rather think of atoms and molecules responding to Quality in extremely
stable patterns of behavior, rather than as participating in a mechanistic
determinism. The determination you describe is an example of "projecting
down" an intellectual pattern of value" just as is using Quality as a
metaphor for the experience of an atom.'
I don't think the world is either mechanistic or 'ruled by' free choice.
'Static quality' describes the determined, mechanistic aspect of the world
and 'dynamic quality' describes its 'free choice' aspect. As descriptions
both 'determination'/'mechanisms' and 'free choice'/'awareness' are indeed
'downward projections of intellectual patterns of value'. Or rather: both
'determination'/'mechanisms' and 'free choice'/'awareness' can be used as
symbols that stand for 1st and 2nd level patterns of experience.
The point of the MoQ is, that description in terms of 'patterns of value'
reconciles 'determination'/'mechanisms' with 'free choice'/'awareness'. The
platypus dissolves and we need to think of the world neither in terms of
'determination'/'mechanisms' nor in terms of 'free choice'/'awareness' any
more.
So what I wrote 27 May was not fully correct. It is not 'patterns of value
are better understood from their underlying mechanisms than from freely
chosen behavior' but 'patterns of value neither need underlying mechanisms
nor freely chosen behavior to understand them'. 'Patterns of value' embody
BOTH static quality (they are pattern of STATIC value) AND dynamic quality
(because they are only PATTERNS of value that allow for exceptions and for
gradual change that doesn't preclude recognizability as still essentially
the same pattern of value). It's because I wrote 'STATIC patterns of value'
that justified to some extent my identifying them with the determined,
mechanistic aspect of the world.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Aug 23 2003 - 15:12:12 BST