MD projecting down

From: Wim Nusselder (
Date: Sat Aug 23 2003 - 15:12:12 BST

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    Dear Steve,

    You wrote 01 Jul 2003 00:24:14 -0400:
    'I think it's a shame that Wim is away for this discussion'.

    I don't think so. You usually present my position very well (e.g. in your 10
    Aug 2003 12:09:36 -0400 post!).

    We may indeed (as you wrote 27 May 2003 15:34:58 -0400) 'part company on the
    idea of applying the idea of awareness to the non-intellectually aware'. You
    'infer from ... Experience = Reality and ... Experience is Quality, that all
    of reality experiences (i.e. values) as well'.

    As I just (23 Aug 2003 15:07:56 +0200) wrote to Sam:
    '"An amoebae fleeing acid" can be seen as a pure MoQ description of a
    pattern: a pattern that connects movements of the amoebae and rises in
    acidity of its immediate surroundings. "An amoebae experiencing acidity and
    consequently fleeing it" is a way of describing that requires SOM. Without
    SOM (the supposition of a subject and an object) nothing meaningful can be
    said about "the experience for the amoebae".'

    Discussing whether atoms, amoebas etc. 'are' aware or not seems to me just
    as useless as discussing whether they are 'liberal' ('want' to participate
    in higher quality patterns of value) or 'conservative' ('want' to stick to
    old patterns of value).

    I wrote 27 May 2003 09:00:13 +0200:
    'Static patterns of value describe determination rather than free choice (as
    Dynamic Quality does). We'd better think and describe them in terms of
    mechanisms maintaining patterns that embody value.'

    You replied 27 May:
    'I see no reason why it's better to think of the world as mechanistic. I
    would rather think of atoms and molecules responding to Quality in extremely
    stable patterns of behavior, rather than as participating in a mechanistic
    determinism. The determination you describe is an example of "projecting
    down" an intellectual pattern of value" just as is using Quality as a
    metaphor for the experience of an atom.'

    I don't think the world is either mechanistic or 'ruled by' free choice.
    'Static quality' describes the determined, mechanistic aspect of the world
    and 'dynamic quality' describes its 'free choice' aspect. As descriptions
    both 'determination'/'mechanisms' and 'free choice'/'awareness' are indeed
    'downward projections of intellectual patterns of value'. Or rather: both
    'determination'/'mechanisms' and 'free choice'/'awareness' can be used as
    symbols that stand for 1st and 2nd level patterns of experience.
    The point of the MoQ is, that description in terms of 'patterns of value'
    reconciles 'determination'/'mechanisms' with 'free choice'/'awareness'. The
    platypus dissolves and we need to think of the world neither in terms of
    'determination'/'mechanisms' nor in terms of 'free choice'/'awareness' any

    So what I wrote 27 May was not fully correct. It is not 'patterns of value
    are better understood from their underlying mechanisms than from freely
    chosen behavior' but 'patterns of value neither need underlying mechanisms
    nor freely chosen behavior to understand them'. 'Patterns of value' embody
    BOTH static quality (they are pattern of STATIC value) AND dynamic quality
    (because they are only PATTERNS of value that allow for exceptions and for
    gradual change that doesn't preclude recognizability as still essentially
    the same pattern of value). It's because I wrote 'STATIC patterns of value'
    that justified to some extent my identifying them with the determined,
    mechanistic aspect of the world.

    With friendly greetings,


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