From: ERIN NOONAN (enoonan@kent.edu)
Date: Sat Aug 30 2003 - 14:44:05 BST
Ian Glendinning wrote:
>Erin,
>
>I can't imagine many people coming across Malsow unless they were into
>business management.
>I was pointing out similarities / parallels.
>This isn't a beauty contest, but I also said Pirsig was more important
>(general) than Maslow.
>Maslow is evidence that Pirsig is onto something important if you like.
>
>Ian
Well a general interest in psychology of course.
I was just noting how those two seem to go hand in hand in my
experience.
I am not clear why, so advertisers can tell you what you need to be
self-actualized ;-)
I commented on your post because you said you saw Pirsig and Maslow as
being so similar. I don't, I think there are too many differences.
I don't know what you are talking about beauty contests. But Pirsig hit
a homer and Maslow didn't in my opinion.
Erin
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
>[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of ERIN NOONAN
>Sent: 29 August 2003 18:09
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
>
>
>Did you say you were a business man? Its funny because its really
>common in my experience that when I meet somebody who is really
>interested in Maslow they are also into business.
>I agree with the MOQ and disagree with Maslow's theory.
>I see some relations, like they both have levels. Surface similarity
>to me.
>Too many great works from people who lower needs were not being met in
>my opinion.
>I heard Maslow's mother kept a lock on their fridge, maybe hunger was
>the inspiration of his ideas :-)
>
>I thought in Lila's child Pirsig explicitly states that he doesn't say
>whether you can skip a level or not. Maslow explicitly states that you
>can't.
>As for Pirsig's model it seems less likely to me that a level can be
>skipped. Possible I guess, but can't think of any examples. But in
>Maslow's I know of way too many examples of lower levels not being met
>and even in people who are considered self-actualized (and Maslow put
>that as less then 5% of the population). Actually after reading
>Maslow's life I think he may have been one of those people. Therefore I
>don't believe his model is anywhere near as great as Pirsigs.
>
>Erin
>
>
>Ian Glendinning wrote:
>
>
>>Wim,
>>
>>Maslow may indeed have thought "all behavior is determined", but I have
>to
>>say when I say Maslow I mean the sum of all modern interpretations,
>>synthesis and extensions of his output, not an analysis of how
>misguided his
>>original thinking may have been, or whether he really used any credible
>>metaphysics of any kind. (This is leading us back to nature / nurture
>and
>>evolutionary psychology again)
>>
>>The discreteness of layers, whilst still being dependent, supporting
>(even
>>conflicting) of each other is common to both Pirsig and Maslow I
>believe.
>>Although the level are discrete (in the sense of defining prototypical
>>aspects of each), that doesn't mean the boundaries don't get fuzzy
>>sometimes, as you move to the interfaces and away from the central
>>prototypes
>>
>>I used to worry about anthropomorphism too, particularly in the
>metaphorical
>>use of active verbs like the examples you cite. Now however I feel it is
>>just human nature to do so in conceptual as well as linguistic
>metaphors,
>>and provided we never forget these are metaphors I think the model is
>>workable. (It seems a truism that we can never have anything but a human
>>perspective on the world, how ever arrogant our metaphysics gets.
>Better to
>>know this than to ignore it - I say.)
>>
>>How do I see the relation between "patterns of value" and "needs" ? To
>be
>>honest I simply see a close parallel between the two frameworks - which
>>always leads me to suspect some underlying relation - more human nature
>to
>>suspect / seek rationale. If I were a betting man, I'd say Pirsig was
>more
>>fundamental (Foucault expresses a similar general philosophical
>framework
>>too IMHO), and that Maslow was just an outcome, a corollary or evidence
>of
>>Pirsig's patterns of value at work in the world.
>>
>>Ian Glendinning
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
>>[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Wim Nusselder
>>Sent: 28 August 2003 22:25
>>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>Subject: Re: MD economics of want and greed 4
>>
>>
>>Dear Ian,
>>
>>I see the parallel now between Maslow and Pirsig. Maslow seems to apply
>>quite another metaphysics however (stating explicitly that all behavior
>is
>>determined in the 1943 article I referred to).
>>
>>Pirsig wrote ('Lila' ch. 12):
>>'This classification of patterns is not very original, but the
>Metaphysics
>>of Quality allows an assertion about them that is unusual. It says they
>are
>>not continuous. They are discrete. They have very little to do with one
>>another. Although each higher level is built on a lower one it is not an
>>extension of that lower level. Quite the contrary. The higher level can
>>often be seen to be in opposition to the lower level, dominating it,
>>controlling it where possible for its own purposes.'
>>
>>I don't particularly like the 'opposition', 'domination', 'controlling'
>and
>>'purposes' sentence. It antropomorphizes the levels more than my
>>understanding of them allows.
>>Do you think Maslow's levels of needs are as discrete and discontinuous
>as
>>Pirsig's levels? How do you see the relation between 'patterns of
>value' and
>>'needs'?
>>
>>With friendly greetings,
>>
>>Wim
>>
>>----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
>>Van: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>>Aan: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Verzonden: donderdag 28 augustus 2003 20:00
>>Onderwerp: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
>>
>>
>>> You're right Wim, I did just latch onto one point that already
>interested
>>> me, rather than looking for what your point was. Sorry about
>that,perhaps
>>I
>>> should have changed the thread title.
>>>
>>> I'm surprised the parallel between Maslow and Pirsig isn't more
>obvious to
>>> more people. It smacked me right between the eyes the first time I read
>>> Pirsig.
>>>
>>> Satisfaction of basic physical / biological needs at the lowest level
>>> Satisfaction of social needs in the middle.
>>> Satisfaction of individual self-fulfillment / intellectual needs at the
>>top.
>>>
>>> What I was trying to say is that there is a strong parallel, even if
>there
>>> isn't a one to one mapping between specific levels, or any direct link
>>> betwen the two.
>>>
>>> (The evolutionary psychology bit is another story, as you say.)
>>>
>>> Ian Glendinning
>>
>>
>>
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