Re: MD liberals, conservatives & suffering

From: David MOREY (
Date: Mon Sep 01 2003 - 10:21:22 BST

  • Next message: David MOREY: "Re: MD Pirsig and Peirce"

    Hi all

    Maybe the SO divide could begin at the biological level,
    in the operation of instincts, but I think not, early human culture clearly
    shows very little divide between self and world, all that my soul is that of
    a panther stuff, the SO divide gets going when the culture starts to
    alienate and separate subject-man and life-world. I recommend Chris Macann's
    book at called Being and Becoming and is about the
    evolution of consciousness from a phenomenological point of view.

    David Morey

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "David Buchanan" <>
    To: <>
    Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:17 PM
    Subject: RE: MD liberals, conservatives & suffering

    > Hi Platt, Scott, Sam, Bo, All:
    > I should have changed the thread name. I'd like to focus on SOM and the
    > divide", but I'm not sure what to call it. Anyway,...
    > Scott said:
    > Where Pirsig goes wrong, in my opinion, is that, while SOM is a high
    > intellectual static pattern of value, the S/O divide is not, and he does
    > make that distinction.
    > Platt replied:
    > Are you saying the S/O divide is not a "high quality" intellectual
    > static pattern, or simply not an intellectual static pattern? If the
    > latter, would you say the S/O divide is a social level static pattern?
    > After all, it is essential to the structure of language which most
    > agree belongs in the social level. ...I think you're on to something.
    > dmb says:
    > I think the S/O divide does preceed the 4th level's SOM. Its a third level
    > assumption that we've inherited with language itself. Its built right in.
    > don't want to complicate the issue, but I can see how this way of seeing
    > world is even built into our biological structures like eyeballs, ear
    > and most notably, skin. :-) In any case, I think that the S/O divide was
    > of those unexamined assumptions taken for granted even by those who
    > participated in the scientific revolution and enlightenment and was
    > formalized into a metaphysical assertion.
    > The interesting thing to note, I think, is that the MOQ has done the same
    > thing. It formalizes third level assumptions too. And that's how it has to
    > be, according to the MOQ. All intellectual constructs are culturally
    > derived. All 4th level patterns can find their origins in the 3rd level.
    > difference between SOM and the MOQ is that Pirsig taps into a different
    > current. The third level values that support the MOQ are from the mystical
    > currents within the culture. Sam, Scott and Platt each hint at this...
    > Scott said:
    > Only in peak experiences is the divide momentarily overcome.
    > Platt said:
    > Or momentarily overcome in DQ experience prior to any divide. Same
    > thing in different words.
    > Sam said:
    > I'm coming to think that SOM as such only really kicked in after the
    > scientific revolution and - as you point out - it doesn't really apply to
    > those intellectual systems (often neo-Platonic) which emphasise
    > participation. (As did medieval Christian theology, in parts, of course).
    > dmb says:
    > Peak experiences. DQ experience. Participation. Yep. We're talking about
    > mysticism, a deeply submerged stream in our mythos. The current that
    > builds upon is sort of hidden and suppressed, but its been part of things
    > all along. He says this explicitly about American culture, but I think its
    > safe to apply it more broadly to the West. In fact, I think we can see
    > currents in our central mythology. The usual reading is SOMish insofar as
    > has God and Nature as seperate from Man, but the same myths can be read
    > another way. We can see the loss of original participation in Adam's exile
    > from Eden and we can see a re-integration or final participation in
    > union with God. This reading depicts our seperation from God as a crisis
    > be overcome rather than a permanent feature of the order of things. I
    > know if I'm connecting the dots well enough, but all I mean to say is that
    > the difference between SOM and the MOQ can be traced back to differences
    > the third level. I'd add that this difference is a part of the
    > static/Dynamic dance, with the mystical tradition periodically breaking
    > through to refresh things.
    > Thanks,
    > dmb
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