From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Tue Aug 19 2003 - 22:12:16 BST
Dear Steve,
Back for clearing up some old stuff.
You wrote 20 May 2003 19:25:41 -0400:
'Wilber suggests (and I agree) that the best distinguishing factor between
liberals and conservatives is answers to the question, "why is Joe
Anybody suffering?"
...
Conservatives focus on internal causation of suffering and offer solutions
that focus on internal development.
...
The liberals ... will suggest external solutions to alleviate the suffering
that was imposed upon Joe from the outside.
...
This is obviously a SOM distinction, but it is silly to think that the MOQ
levels would do a better job than SOM in distinguishing the American
political camps than SOM since we are talking about how SOM thinking people
have divided themselves. This is no Platypus for the MOQ to clear up. The
difference between liberals and conservatives is a result of SOM thinking
and is thus easiest to understand in SOM terms.'
Not being an American, I have no idea about the best way to distinguish
liberals and conservatives in the USA. In the Netherlands those who call
themselves 'liberals' want to be as free as possible from government
interference (which seems to be a conservative position in the USA) and
'conservative' is a label very few want to be associated with.
It seems to me however, that IF a distinction between internal and external
causation of suffering is to be reconciled, a MoQ IS in a very good position
to do so. In a MoQ 'causation' is just a 4th level pattern of values
(reflecting patterns of experience on any level), with 'valuation' as a
preferred alternative. A MoQ inspired answer to the question 'Why is Joe
Anybody suffering?' (and 'What to do about it?') would not refer to 'causes'
at all, so the problem whether suffering is internally or externally caused
would not come up at all. In other words: a MoQ WOULD clear up this
platypus.
The observable (I hope) correlation between suffering on the one hand and
EITHER phenomena 'internal' to the sufferer OR phenomena 'external' to the
sufferer (which would have to decide in favour of EITHER the conservative OR
the liberal position) does not change at all whether we say
'internal/external phenoma cause suffering' or 'the sufferer values
internal/external phenomena'. As in Pirsig's example ('Lila' chapter 8)
'scientifically speaking neither statement is more true than the other'.
Does that mean that a MoQ inspired answer to the question 'Why is Joe
Anybody suffering?' would be twofold, 'a conservative sufferer values
internal phenomena, whereas a liberal one values external phenomena'? Not
really. A MoQ would draw attention to the pattern of experience of which
both the suffering and the internal phenoma AND/OR the external phenomena
are part. The MoQ inspired explanation of suffering is the type of pattern
that correlates suffering and internal AND/OR external phenomena PLUS the
way in which this (type of) pattern is latched.
Compare the inorganic pattern of value that explains iron filings moving
towards a magnet: One could say that the iron filings are somehow (internal
to them) 'aware' of a value of the magnet for them and behave accordingly.
Alternatively one could say that there is (external to the iron filings) a
degree of 'magnetism' in the magnet to which the iron filings react. We can
bicker endlessly whether the 'internal' or the 'external' description is
best, but this appears to me rather irrelevant to the MoQ explanation: that
it is an INORGANIC pattern of value that correlates the movement of the iron
filings and the presence of the magnet, implying a specific way of latching
of this pattern.
So let's ignore the bickering of liberals and conservatives and concentrate
on the question whether suffering is a part of inorganic, biological, social
and/or intellectual patterns of value and if so, which ones.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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