From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Sep 16 2003 - 16:09:35 BST
Hi Jonathan,
> PLATT
> These [Jonathan's pesticide resistance examples] are examples of
> microevolution. What's at issue, and what evolution
> theory fails to predict, are macro changes like the origin of life
> from matter, the development up from the simple cell, and the evolution
> of the cell into complicated, living organisms. The theory is always
> looking back. It can't tell us what the next macro change, if any, will
> be.
>
> JONATHAN replies:
> Darwin had no access to geological dating tools, so had no direct
> evidence for when various single-celled and multi-celled organisms first
> emerged. Therefore, any timeline Darwin implied is PROSPECTIVE. The fact
> is that the timeline constructed using the latest geological dating
> tools essentially confirms Darwin's ideas.
Perhaps on a microevolution scale, as most of the examples you cite
below indicate. But macro jumps, like conscious monkey to self-
conscious man, are not implied prospectively or otherwise by any
evolutionary theory I'm aware of.
> PLATT
> I know of nothing in evolutionary theory that would predict the
> emergence of self-consciousness, the step up from the gorilla.
>
> JONATHAN
> Platt, all I need from you is a working definition of self-consciousness
> and we can then start testing theories . . .;-)
How about this as a working definition? Any group of like organisms
who leave evidence of reverential burial of their dead with artifacts,
demonstrating concern for the well-being of the departed "self."
> PLATT
> What other predictions does evolutionary theory make besides the two
> you've named? You say there are many. How about half a dozen?
>
> JONATHAN
> Okay Platt, here goes
> 1. We will find key enzymes conserved from bacteria all the way through
> the animal and plant kingdoms - SEVERAL EXAMPLES FOUND. (not Darwin,
> because he didn't know about enzymes, but a hypothesis implicit in all
> the funding that went into molecular biology).
OK. I agree microevolution has been satisfactorily demonstrated in
molecular biology. But it's a big jump from molecules to Mozart, and
all the little intermediary changes that evolutionary theory predicts
could change a molecule to a Mozart over time have yet to be found in
the fossil record.
> 2. Some species will be
> observed to go extinct (SEVERAL SAD EXAMPLES).
I'll grant you that.
3. Climatic change will
> be associated with change in the flora and fauna (SEVERAL EXAMPLES in
> geological/biological record).
Microevolution again.
4. Human's may turn out to be not so
> unique after all (SEVERAL EXAMPLES from language and behavioural
> experiments).
If you mean chimps and dolphins learning sign language after lengthy
training by humans, I'm not impressed. My dog will roll over on
command. What I'd look for as a test of human uniqueness is the ability
to laugh.
5. Old molecules will be put to new uses. SEVERAL EXAMPLES
> e.g. the visual protein rhodopsin is related to bacteriorhodopsin, a
> photosynthetic pigment in certain bacteria. 6. Hosts and parasites will
> be found to co-evolve (SEVERAL EXAMPLES).
Again, microevolution examples. Nevertheless, thanks for taking the
trouble to bring these examples to my attention.
The questions about Darwinian theory or neo-Darwinism or whatever the
latest scientific thinking may be on the subject will never be resolved
to everyone's satisfaction. The gaps in the Darwinian explanation are
either too large or the testability of the theory too small. It has yet
make a convincing case that a bunch of subatomic particles are the
ultimate source of humor, beauty, mathematics, cathedrals and Bach's
Fugue in C.
The neat thing about Pirsig is that he tackles these questions head on
with an explanation that not only covers the bases, but brings science
and the humanities together under one umbrella, namely, Quality. And he
does it without going all religious on us by invoking the Bible or
other messages received directly from on high. If I had to choose
between the Biblical version of creation and the science version, I'd
take the science version any day. But now with the MOQ I've another
choice, thank God. :-)
Platt
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