From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat Oct 11 2003 - 19:47:08 BST
Hi
My point is that choice depends on alternative futures being available.
I go to my fridge and can eat eggs or ham but not steak because I do
not have any steak. In this situation (wanting to eat) at least 2 futures
are
available the ham sandwich or the egg on toast. It seems to me that being
human,
having choice is very much related to this orientation towards the future in
the context
of the past, focus on the present is kind of meaningless, it ignores the
situation (past)
and the choices (given possibilities/future). The present is defined by past
and future and otherwise is kind of
meaningless.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mati Palm-Leis" <mpalm@merr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:17 AM
Subject: RE: MD Intellectual level - New letter from Pirsig
> David,
> I miss the point about the dog in trap 6, but ok I will comment on time.
> Past and Future are not the cutting edge of reality, the present is.
> Past and future before the time of language had very little meaning.
> Choice it seem is part of the diversity of patterns and realities that
> exist. Change occurs in time, in the present. Choices we as humans or
> other living creatures make are in respect to the diversity patterns we
> call life. Thinking is only is only one of the many patterns that exist.
> Quality and especially DQ quality create the capacity for choice to make
> changes for the good.
>
> Mati
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> thinking about the future should be part
> of choice, and that can change everything, at
> least I hope so. Come on dog in trap 6!
>
> regards
> David M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mati Palm-Leis" <mpalm@merr.com>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 1:01 PM
> Subject: RE: MD Intellectual level - New letter from Pirsig
>
>
> > David,
> >
> > I would like to point out a couple things. The S/O divide has existed
> > without knowing about it. As far of the dog example the S/O divide
> > exists for the dog even though he doesn't know it. As I see it social
> > level is when living organisms have the capacity for "social learning"
> > or the capacity of being to communicate and learn from one another.
> > Many biological animals exist on the social level in its most primate
> > ways. Your "Social" interaction with your dog is evidence of that.
> > Human beings have developed some of the most sophisticated forms of
> > communications by developing language. Language and the understanding
> of
> > the future itself did not break the social level into the intellectual
> > level but in my humble estimation created the fertile ground to do so.
> > Language, or the manipulation of symbols did give us the capacity to
> > recognize the S/O divide and in doing so, broke unto the other side
> into
> > the intellectual level. For the dog the S/O divide is seamless and for
> > us it is not. SOM drove that wedge that created that reality for us,
> not
> > language itself. As far as the future is concerned it to doesn't
> change
> > fact, but it is interesting to think about it.
> >
> > Mati
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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