From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Sun Oct 26 2003 - 16:01:26 GMT
Hi Andy,
> Andy:
>I am unclear as to why social values cannot
> be replaced, however. Probably, because I am using values in a broader sense
> than "value" is implied within the MOQ.
If by "why social values can't be replaced" you mean that you wonder why an
intellectual pattern can't become a social pattern then I don' think the
issue is your use of "value" but rather understanding "types of patterns of
value". It can be confusing because many posters are referring to "types of
people" (DMB) or "the value of ____ "(Bo) when referring to the static
levels rather than types of patterns of value.
It's important to think in terms of patterns to understand what 'static'
means in the MOQ. It's not about a lack of movement but rather a pattern
that persists over time.
>Social value in the MOQ comes first,
> right? Whereas by social values (when I used this term) I meant certain
> ideas, patterns, lifestyles, etc. that particular societies value.
What you've just defined would be examples supporting Pirsig's definition of
the term 'culture' which he defines as a collection of social and
intellectual patterns.
Social value is not 'that which a society values'. I think of it as the
type of value that holds a society together (as inorganic value holds
'stuff' together, biological value maintains life and intellectual value
holds ideas together). We recognize this type of static quality in patterns
of behavior in social interactions (e.g. social roles like father, mother,
employer, employee, politician, citizen, and patterns of social roles like
families and companies and government institutions) that are copied from one
person to another selected for imitation on the basis of undefined quality.
Likewise, Intellectual quality is not to be defined as 'that which an
intellectual values' (note that defining that way would imply a
subject/object dichotomy) though an intellectual will value intellectual
quality. We recognize intellectual value in the patterns of thought or
patterns of symbolic manipulation that are experienced as high or low
quality rationales, explanations of experience, or motivation for behavior.
Though 'that which an intellectual values' could become 'that which a
society values', a pattern of manipulation of symbols can't become a pattern
of social interaction. However, patterns of symbolic manipulation (ideas,
explanations, rationales) can influence patterns of social interaction.
Does that some sense, Andy?
Thanks,
Steve
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