From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Feb 02 2004 - 20:14:25 GMT
Paul said:That does not mean, as an idealist metaphysics would have it, that
intellect creates experience, rather that experience creates intellect.
Experience is categorised by intellect and levels are categories.
DM: Rather experience is the clearing in which both things and ideas
can appear. You see if a car is coming towards you I suggest you move
rather than consider your conceptual framework. But equally, concepts
are truly emergent, as Pirsig says about Newton's gravity. Newton's
concept of gravity tells us something about what is real and at the same
time
has created something and added to the open-process-reality of the cosmos.
The cosmos is a single whole, but through time it becomes more complex,
complex
means more differentiated yet still whole. Now if I explain gravity to you
for the first
time, you need to grasp an idea, it is up to you to find that idea for
yourself, to make
sense of it, but where does that grasping come from? From nowhere, it is
like you are
a Newton too when you make the leap to understanding. The possibility of
this understanding
is your human openness to the possible, you make actual something only
potentia, but in a way this
potential was already yours, this is why truth is Aletheia, it uncovers what
you already knew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Turner" <paulj.turner@ntlworld.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: MD Awareness and Quality
> Steve, Matt
>
> Matt said:
> Caveat 2) I think Pirsig does want to say in one sense that "all
> patterns are intellectual." I'm thinking of his LC note 97 in which he
> says, "It is important for an understanding of the MOQ to see that
> although 'common sense' dictates that inorganic nature came first,
> actually 'common sense' which is A SET OF IDEAS, has to come first. This
> 'common sense' is arrived at through a web of SOCIALLY APPROVED
> EVALUATIONS of various alternatives. The key term here is 'evaluation',
> i.e. quality decisions. The fundamental reality is not the common sense
> or the objects and laws approved of by common sense but the approval
> itself and the quality that leads to it." I think Pirsig is here saying
> that all of our knowledge is intellectual patterns. That being so, the
> MoQ and its talk of "patterns" is an intellectual pattern. This makes,
> in one sense, all patterns intellectual. However, in another sense, all
> patterns aren't intellectual as Pirsig notes when he goes on to talk
> about the fundamental reality in the last line.
>
> Paul:
> I agree with Matt that "in one sense, all patterns are intellectual."
> That is, in the sense that we can describe experience in terms of levels
> and patterns we must first have converted that experience into symbols
> of some kind which stand for that experience. Only then can that
> experience be intellectually constructed into explanations of
> experience. Pirsig says this many times in ZMM and Lila e.g. "[Value] is
> the primary empirical reality from which such things as stoves and heat
> and oaths and self are later intellectually constructed." [Lila p.76]
>
> That does not mean, as an idealist metaphysics would have it, that
> intellect creates experience, rather that experience creates intellect.
> Experience is categorised by intellect and levels are categories.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
>
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