Re: MD Sensory Deprived theory

Date: Tue Feb 03 2004 - 21:42:33 GMT

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    Poot: I think, therefor I am Matt....?

    Tom: Sorry, guessed from your e-mail address!

    Matt: I think that words have been beneficial to a point, serving great
    purpose in
    science, and philosophy.  I also think that we should not abandon words
    wholly.  Just not use them as the main form of communication. 

    Tom: I'm not sure of the actual statistics, but most of our communication is
    in words. Think of an internet without words, this forum would be pretty
    stuck. There's also the difference between a frozen and normal register; basically
    written words stay written, and you can go back and re-read them. I'm not sure
    how that would work with concepts. Having never been telepathic myself, I
    can't really comment on how well it'd work,

    Poot: If we were to be able to discuss in feeling and thought, rather than in
    word, progress
    towards enlightenment would be made so much incredibly better, not
    necessarily faster, but better.

    Words just bring misunderstaning.   In different situations , words have
    multiple meanings, and even though many of these are commonly understood by
    many people,  it is only because of that feeling associated with it.  

    Tom: I remember an arguement I had with an English Degree Student about how
    the ambiguous nature of the English Language was either brilliant, or a great
    weakness. She eventually turned me round to her point of view that it was
    precisely this ambiguous nature that made language beautiful.

    Thinking wider, the only way we can really communicate is through common
    experiences. How do you explain a sunset to a man who has been blind since birth?
    Will he know what a circle is? Whether you communicate through sounds, tastes,
    texture, you get this problem of communicating something exclusive to one

    Perhaps what you're suggesting is that we somehow _make_ them experience what
    we have. In a way, that'd be passing on some of ourselves. I'm not sure how
    experiences would relate to Quality (trying to bring this into line with
    Quality!), do our experiences increase our feelings of Quality?

    Tom:  It could just be that sometimes we have thoughts for
    >which we have no lexical representation, _______ or words for which we have
    >no thoughts.________

    Poot:  Did you mean thoughts for which we have no words?  Or it could be the
    use of nouns, which I think is the primary function of a language.  These
    would be the hardest to describe or to communicate by feeling.

    Tom: Basically, there are things for which we have no words. There are also
    things for which our language has no translation in other languages. This
    affects us greatly.

    Tom: Is this 'pre-thought' an innate sense of Quality? Well, I
    >would say that that's highly subjective, but...

    Poot:  I would say that the pre-thought is an innate sense, directing us
    towards quality, but it is our concious thought, influenced by "morals" and
    "ethics" then make our minds choose to overwhelm the prethought, smothering
    them with "Proper" and "right".  I would use the feeling of sexual desire in
    our society as an example.  We look at someone who is attractive, and have
    the wish to...fornicate...but, our "moral code" would say that this
    behaviour is devious.  Often, 2 persons who are attracted to each other ,
    sexually, cannot just have sex, be it once, or a few times, or many,and then
    let it be at that, with no feeling for the need of it to be anything more. 
    Now, I will say, that in many more liberal people, this does not exist so
    stringently, and things are changing(as they always are).

    Tom: So perhaps the pre-thought is our independant thought, and the concious
    thought is filtered through a 'thou shalt' implanted by society? 'The giant'?
    Would this mean that our individual Quality (which is described by Pirsig as
    'the moment Subject perceives Object' at some point in ZMM), is diluted by
    social expectations?

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