RE: MD Objectivity, Truth, MOQ and Skyscrapers

From: Paul Turner (
Date: Sun Feb 15 2004 - 11:22:02 GMT

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    Mati said:
    When you wrote:
    >If the terms objective and subjective, with respect to ideas, methods
    >and knowledge, were replaced with high quality and low quality, I
    think there would be less confusion.

    In the same vain it won't work because we would have to "subjectively"
    decide what quality is high and low.

    No. First of all, in the MOQ, "deciding what quality is high and low"
    (i.e. evaluation) is the primary empirical reality from which static
    patterns are created. Quality is not decided "subjectively," quality
    decisions precede static subjective and objective reality.

    Second, you're doing it again. In the MOQ, intellectual (and social)
    patterns are only *ontologically* subjective i.e. they have no material
    existence. No physical sense, camera or recording equipment can detect a
    social or intellectual pattern of value. This is the only significant
    difference between objective and subjective patterns.

    The dichotomies of subjective and objective knowledge, opinion and
    Truth, value and fact, are an epistemological hangover from Bo's heroes,
    the ancient Greeks. Once these dichotomies are discarded, truth, facts,
    and if you insist on keeping it, objectivity, become terms for
    describing static intellectual patterns created by high Quality

    "The birth of a new fact is always a wonderful thing to experience. It's
    dualistically called a "discovery" because of the presumption that it
    has an existence independent of anyone's awareness of it. When it comes
    along, it always has, at first, a low value. Then, depending on the
    value-looseness of the observer and the potential quality of the fact,
    its value increases, either slowly or rapidly, or the value wanes and
    the fact disappears." [ZMM p.319]

    Mati said:
    How would you decide if water is a low quality value? Water is simply
    inorganic. To decide whether it is high or low is a subjective move.

    Water is static inorganic quality and therefore objective - you can see
    it, drink it and physically analyse it. The only subjective "part" of
    water is the scientific description of its properties. The description
    of water i.e. its atomic composition, its freezing and boiling points
    etc. are empirically successful high quality intellectual patterns.



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