From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Mon Feb 16 2004 - 14:17:20 GMT
Mati, Paul and Group
15 Feb. Paul wrote:
> Mati said:
> When you wrote:
> >If the terms objective and subjective, with respect to ideas, methods
> > and knowledge, were replaced with high quality and low quality, I
> think there would be less confusion.
> In the same vain it won't work because we would have to "subjectively"
> decide what quality is high and low.
> Paul:
> No. First of all, in the MOQ, "deciding what quality is high and low"
> (i.e. evaluation) is the primary empirical reality from which static
> patterns are created. Quality is not decided "subjectively," quality
> decisions precede static subjective and objective reality.
Mati will no doubt answer for himself, but things flow so smoothly
from Paul's "WordPerfect" program that it makes it difficult to sort
out. We are at the STATIC levels always and decisions have to
be made from the next higher static level. It is Life that decides
how good inorganic patterns are, Society about Biology and
Intellect about Society. And with no judge of intellect there is no
way to tell how good or bad an intellectual pattern is ...not you
kind of intellectual patterns at least that are "ideas". If a person
decides that the highest quality "idea" is to slam a jetliner into a
building who can tell?
Something "beyond" intellect is needed to judge its value. The
explanatory power of the MOQ lies in its inter-level struggle
model. But in your model it all becomes an intra-intellect struggle
between ideas ...exactly as in SOM, and all usefulness is gone.
> Paul:
> Water is static inorganic quality and therefore objective - you can
> see it, drink it and physically analyse it.
Water "objectiv"? Didn't Pirsig go to great lengths in LILA to
show that matter has no objective quality, and "mind" no
subjective quality From where comes this new subjectivity and
objectivity ...AFTER the SOM has been done away with???
> The only subjective "part"
> of water is the scientific description of its properties. The
> description of water i.e. its atomic composition, its freezing and
> boiling points etc. are empirically successful high quality
> intellectual patterns.
Speaking of turning things upside down. The intellectual,
scientific description of the world is the "objectivisation" of
subjective experience; of turning this inorganic pattern that all life
need - socially know as "water" - into a chemical called H2O with
a lot of objective properties.
IMO
Bo
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