From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Sun Apr 18 2004 - 13:07:55 BST
Wim,
I've always taken the view that the only difference between a metaphor and a
"literal fact" (whatever one of those is), is the time it takes the matphor
to die and become accepted as a ueful statement in its own right.
Ian G
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Nusselder" <wim.nusselder@antenna.nl>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: MD junk or politics on this list
> Dear Jon,
>
> You wrote 30 Mar 2004 18:28:24 -0500:
> 'from the beginning in 1776, America and its system of government was
> referred to as an "experiment." The founding fathers were, in a very real
> way, scientists.'
>
> Is it possible that they used "experiment" as a metaphor, making them
"like
> scientists" rather than "in a very real way scientists"?
>
> You wrote:
> 'I have always looked at this as a battle of ideas. ... If people can, for
> brief moments, literally become the personification of a concept, I
contend
> that so can nations. ... In Iraq, the concept of Freedom had a showdown
with
> the concept of Tyranny.'
>
> I agree to some extent: Ideas motivate actions. Success of actions is an
> argument in a metaphorical "battle of ideas".
> Real battles and the behaviour of real nations are only in a small part a
> result of motives, however. Like individual behaviour it is largely
> habitual: mob behaviour, us versus them reflexes in response to fear,
> looking at the one with the highest status to follow his/her lead. Nations
> (and groups in general) also "personify" the habitual patterns of value
that
> hold them together.
> No nation and no individual only "personifies" ONE concept. And apart from
> "personifying" habitual and symbolic patterns of value (third level and
> fourth level static patterns of value), they are also receptive to Dynamic
> Quality and shouldn't be treated like 'turds that clog toilets and only
need
> to be flushed to let fresh water stream'. Saddam not only "personifies"
> Tyranny, but also Arabic nationalism....
>
> I hope America learns from this "experiment"
> - that democracy nor appreciation of freedom can be imposed on people with
> strong (national and/or religious, collective and/or individual)
identities,
> - that security cannot be guaranteed by military power, even if it equals
> the sum total of the military power of the rest of the world taken
together
> and
> - that the only way to make the world a better world to live in -also for
> Americans- is to use economic and military power to give everyone better
> perspectives instead of mainly looking after American interests.
>
> With friendly greetings,
>
> Wim
>
>
>
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