Re: MD Religion of the future.

From: David Morey (
Date: Thu Apr 29 2004 - 18:08:31 BST

  • Next message: David Morey: "Re: MD DQ/SQ, myticism and the organic conception of nature"

    Hi Dave

    Understand your point and agree in principle.
    But I think that it would be more justified to say
    that Sam's views are hard to fit with his Christian
    inheritance than to say that he was weighed down
    and incapable of grasping the MOQ fully. I have
    little doubt that Sam has a good grasp of DQ, most
    people are stuck within an SOM position with no grasp
    of DQ. Might be easier for a non-Christian to get through
    this eye of the needle than a Christian but I would never
    say impossible, the UK Christian tradition is far from literal,
    take our popular Mr Don Cupitt for example.

    Back to general point about 'truth' really. I state my own
    position as critical realist, i.e. I get all that post-modern
    metaphor stuff but am happy to say that a conversation with nature
    occurs, therefore we can make truth claims about what we think
    nature is telling us (even without any natural language, we sort of
    have to persuade nature to become a conversational partner in a language
    we have constructed). But I am less sure what I think about truth outside
    of the context of science. What are your views on truth?

    David M

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "storeyd" <>
    To: "Joe" <>; <>
    Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 3:25 AM
    Subject: RE: MD Religion of the future.

    > Hi all
    > David M said: I have been disappointed by the overall reaction to Sam's
    > >ideas, seems to me that we should be promoting the MOQ for all not
    > >out people who bring in heavy baggage like Christianity or pragmatism or
    > >whatever. Although I equally think people should not take offense at a
    > >of heated argument or even abuse, but we aren't all as non-sensitive as I
    > >am.
    > While tolerance is an indispensible attitude to productive discussions, it
    > not the ceiling of discourse, and ultimately it is a limited perspective.
    > Why? Because of the same problem that plague many a postmodern pluralist:
    > nonjudgmentalism. it's when the subject does not merely reserve judgment
    > order to acquire a critical, multi-lateral perspective, but becomes
    > of judgment, and lumps all views under a the relativistic banner of
    > sanctioned by watchwords like sensitive, pluralistic, inclusive, etc.
    > is, to an extent, all very good, but in the impassioned rush to achieve
    > inclusivity, one risks conflating and ignoring the irreconcialable
    > between different views; in other words, not all differences are formal
    > (however, much of the postmodern world believes all ideologies,
    > perspectives are different amalgamations of forms, signs, surfaces, texts,
    > etc., that is, it does not believe in qualitatively different content
    > is another way of saying that it does not believe in spirit, meaning,
    > etc.) This is what happenned with Sam. Remember, Pirsig certainly feels
    > some views are of a higher caliber of quality than others. Christianity
    > (well, what C.S. Lewis called "mere christianity", which basically means
    > sine qua non of the faith, meaning that the incarnation was a literal,
    > historical event, the only way to God) confuses DQ with SQ, and that
    > according to Pirsig's metaphysics, that it is a low or limited quality
    > period. No buts. The truth, David M, is that Sam removed himself from
    > discussion, we did not drive him out. The insensitivity, you see, is due
    > him, not to others who disagreed with him and tried to convince him
    > "heavy baggage", after all, tends to weigh one down, and in general, it
    is a
    > nuisance to those who sincerely wish to travel.
    > What do you think?
    > -Dave
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