Re: MD Is there any more to reason than patterns?

From: gav (gav_gc@yahoo.com.au)
Date: Thu Jun 17 2004 - 09:43:17 BST

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    strictly speaking man's senses do not provide the
    material for reason or pre-intellectual value to work
    upon - this is SOM. it leads to the conclusion that
    the subject and his senses are fundamental and
    distinct from the object of his senses.
    man's senses, like the subject, are abstracted from
    unitary experience.

    secondly,--- David Morey <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
    wrote: > Hi
    >
    > What is Pirsig saying would you say:
    > Is there any more to reason than patterns?
    >
    > David M
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
    > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 6:41 PM
    > Subject: RE: MD Objectivism and the MOQ
    >
    >
    > > Platt's response to Paul:
    > >
    > > >Rand: 2. Reason (the faculty which identifies and
    > integrates the material
    > > >provided by man's senses)
    > > >
    > > >Paul:
    > > >Whereas in the MOQ, it is pre-intellectual value
    > which identifies and
    > > >integrates the material provided by man's senses.
    > > >
    > > >"Value is the predecessor of structure. It's the
    > pre-intellectual
    > > >awareness that gives rise to it. Our structured
    > reality is pre-selected
    > on
    > > >the basis of value, and really to understand
    > structured reality requires
    > an
    > > >understanding of the value source from which it's
    > derived." [ZMM p.291]
    > >
    > > Platt: "Agree. But this quote does not deny that
    > structure (the
    > integration
    > > of
    > > sense data) isn't created post-value by static
    > emotional and intellectual
    > > patterns."
    > >
    > > Right, the structure is really created, and the
    > values of the
    > > pre-intellectual awareness are not sensed or
    > valued randomly, but rather
    > are
    > > sensed and valued for reasons. This is the
    > connection of Reason, as in,
    > the
    > > ability of consciousness to order and structure
    > according to values, to
    > > Reason, as in, the idea that there is only one way
    > for consciousness to
    > > order and structure reality, and it is dependent
    > on the prior order and
    > > structure of reality.
    > >
    > > Unless someone is proposing that each moment bears
    > no connection to the
    > > previous or next moments, I don't see how Rand and
    > the MoQ are
    > incompatible.
    > > Rand just stresses reason, whereas Pirsig
    > stresses value. But you can't
    > > have either without the other. Both are aspects
    > of Morality.
    > >
    > > >Rand:
    > > >[Reason] is man's only means of perceiving
    > reality
    > > >
    > > >Paul:
    > > >Whereas in the MOQ, the pre-intellectual
    > perception of reality as values
    > > >precedes reason.
    > >
    > > Platt: "Yes."
    > >
    > > But there are reasons for the values that are
    > pre-intellectually
    > perceived.
    > > And Reason is the realization of that fact.
    > >
    > > Johnny
    > >
    > >
    >
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