Magnus, Jonathan, Marco and group
On 6 May Magnus wrote:
> I don't think there are such "indeterminable areas" between any levels.
> It was some time ago I stressed this but Pirsig is very clear on this
> discrete nature of the levels. It requires some thinking to come to terms
> with it and fit it with your observations of reality, but it's worth it.
You are right, the levels are discrete and I made it sound as if the
were levels between levels and that's wrong. My idea was that the
adjacent levels overlap to some extent and may "claim ownership"
to the same pattern. A virus may look lifeless from an inorganic
p.o.v. and yet have some lifelike qualities seen from biology. But
granted: nothing falls outside the static value table, I never
disagreed with that. But tell me Magnus, by saying
> It was some time ago I stressed this but Pirsig is very clear on
> this discrete nature of the levels.
does it mean that you have changed your mind about this? Just
curious.
> A beehive is a society (SocPOVs) in every respect, just as any Giant. Make
> a comparison with the Victorian pre WWI European states. They sent their
> soldiers to the trenches just like any beehive does when danger threatens.
> The soldiers died mindlessly just as the bees, I'm sure the soldiers thought
> a lot about what they were doing but they were trained not to. The Giant
> had taught them to protect the Giant with their lives and they did.
Ok, beehives are societies, but why re-make them (and human
cities and countries) into biology again by invoking the Giant
image? Other than paying tribute to SOM where one have to have a
biological organism to have mind? States are social patterns and
powerful enough in their own right. The soldiers of pre- WW1
weren't exactly mindless, but their social "minds" weren't overlaid
with enough intellectual "mind". That option isn't for bees and ants.
> To go back to Todd's original topic, I do feel a little bit like a red blood
> cell in the city. I bring value to my company which is a part of the city, just
> as a red blood cell brings value (O2) to a working muscle cell. And I certainly
> feel the pulse! I get up every morning to go to work through rush hour, have you
> seen a film of a city from above with a picture taken every fifteen minutes or so?
> It's not hard at all to begin thinking about blood streams. And the sun is the
> heart.
The imagination is fine, but it has no special MOQ significance
IMHO.
==================
On 4 May Jonathan wrote:
> Bo, what's all this *my* MOQ? I thought we were talking about Pirsig's
> MOQ. Do you really have your own version? If so, you really need to do
> a better job of explaining it!
Relax old friend, its just another way of saying "in my opinion".
> Bodvar, either I am too thick to understand you, or what you >
write is
> nonsense. Why do you persists with this "Q-intellect"? Are you talking
> about intellect as most people understand it, or are you talking about
> something else? In either case, the question of intellect didn't arise
> in the questions I formulated, nor in Rick's rephrased question. Now
> let's get back to those.
I have been so persistent because your first entry sounded so
subject-object metaphysical, speaking of a city being aware. What
is awareness if not consciousness or mind? And in SOM mind is
out of biology, consequently the city must be viewed as an
organism. I have nothing against speaking about a "mind" or "self"
at all static levels, but the Giant idea sounds like a being different
from us with a mind of its own.
The question of the intellectual level did possibly not arise, but it
looms behind all this.
"Talking about intellect as most people understand it"? Have we
come together at this site to speak of things as most people
understand them?
> Do you really know the intentions of the Norwegian nation? Do you know
> the election results before the votes are counted? This appears
> similar to Rick's "it just happens as a byproduct of the decisions of
> individuals ..." If that's all Social patterns are, then Pirsig's
> whole idea of higher level patterns becomes pointless. As I understand
> it, the patterns of the higher level are not just the sum of the lower
> level components, but TRANSCEND the lower level.
Political elections are intellect's objectivizing of society. You are
right about the higher patterns being more than the sum of the
lower level components ...etc. Absolutely. What may cause our
disagreement is that you (and most other) write as if humankind is
transcended by society. The human biology is transcended by
human society which is transcended by human intellect, but we
are an aggregate of all levels. That's what I mean by saying that we
"know" society, just like our biology self knows life, and intellect
knows ....um ..."knowing".
On 5 May Marco told ......
....a very interesting story and concluded...
> 1. The Giant is ALIVE.
> (not biologically, of course).
The metaphors about big social patterns as biological entities are
inevitable, but your small bracketed insert is good enough for me.
But then you "take off" again.
> 2. The Giant is CONSCIOUS and HAS a WILL.
> There's no fortuity. That road is necessary in that place to solve
> traffic problems. This is a decision. And there's a competent bureau
> supporting that decision. And when the Giant sends you a letter to
> communicate you something, you can well read on the top of the sheet
> its name: "City of ....". In the bottom of the same sheet you will
> find also another name: some obscure clerk just to make you know who
> is the person you can contact, but surely not a person able to easily
> change that decision.
"CONSCIOUS and HAS a WILL". The state, city, neighbourhood -
your own family even - will probably often be felt as running you
over, but what static level of yours is "run over" - in your story - by
the municipal authorities? In my opinion it's the omnipresent
"intellect vs society" struggle. Intellect always crying out when its
values are infringed upon (individual rights threatened by social
"rights").
But intellect (in my book=subject object logic) has no real answer.
The individual is supposed to have its rights unmolested - always -
yet any four-year old will understand that the city at times must
overrule the citizen. So the futile debates go on and on, in one
moment we are the individual, the next we are the city and meet
ourself in the doorway constantly.
The problem is of course that there exist no "social value" in
intellect's SOL-world. It has to create a quasi-biological giant with
an evil mind/will set upon crushing the noble individual ....who
supposedly would have been completely happy hadn't it been for
the abominable social oppression.
Nuff said.
Bo
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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