Hi Bo and MF
You wrote:
> This "language only" argument is meant to take all with their heads
> in the clouds down a peg or two: It's all hot air, signifying nothing!!!
> Again and again people come to this forum declaring that Pirsig
> has forgotten this most obvious thing, either in this "only words"
> (Joao) form or in the "observing mind" (Jaap) form and the veterans
> never come to MoQ's rescue ....no, they don't because they are
> mired in the same bog: What goes on in the Q-intellect is just
> ...something "representing" something in the real world "out
> there". Good old SOM has invaded the MoQ with the intellectual
> level as "subject/mind" and the rest of the levels as
> "object/matter". Voila!! Nothing gained.
I think you misread my "representing" post (and my classicist essay)
when you add the "real world out there" above. I wrote:
"My view is that intellectual patterns are simply representations
of other patterns, whatever the level."
Which means: Intellectual patterns are just as real as any other
pattern since the world wouldn't be the same without them. What
intellectual patterns can do that no other level pattern can, is
to represent another pattern, or the same pattern recursively.
(Please agree with me that this feature - to represent something -
is not possible to do with other level patterns. Other level
patterns just exist in themselves. And in our world, to
represent something else than just itself is a very important
feature and must, I believe, be introduced on a metaphysical
level.)
The suffix phrase "whatever the level" means that intellectual
patterns can represent any other pattern of any level including
the intellectual level itself. It has little to do with mind,
although what we mean with mind would require intellectual
patterns.
Since intellectual patterns can represent themselves, the division
between intellect/mind and "the real world out there" is not
present anymore. Intellectual patterns are also a part of
"the real world out there".
The SOM division subject=mind/object=matter is *not*, *inte*,
*ikke*, *nicht* the same as intellectual level vs. other
levels! However, the SOM division can be derived from the MoQ
levels.
The MoQ tells us that mind requires intellectual patterns,
which in turn requires the lower levels. That's the connection
between the SOM's mind and matter. There's no invasion of SOM's
subject/object dualism, it's safely buried in SOM, that's what
we've gained.
> My point is that MoQ's INTELLECTUAL LEVEL has nothing
> whatsoever to do with SOM's mental/mind/representation/
> psychic/..etc. It is another value step, no more special, no less
> special than the previous steps.
I agree that it's just another value step, or rather, just as
unique as the others. On the other hand, I do think it has quite
a bit to do with SOM's mental/mind/...
To return to the topic of the month, well, the reason we discuss the
intellectual level is to find out if time can be an intellectual
pattern. I still think not.
Magnus
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