Hi Moffers,
re-reading my post I think I've been maybe misunderstood on some of my
opinions. I try everyday to estimate MoQ on what's happening to me, or to
our society. First and second part of my post must be read in the light of
this continual attempt. I want to clarify that:
Firstly, I'm not a fanatic of present western society. I'm especially scared
for all these wars that our countries are fighting. Ok, these are not so
terrible as some past wars, but they're however WARS! Our society is full of
mistakes and injustice. Our mission must be always to prevent violence...
but we are not able. Isaac Asimov said something like: "Violence is the
incapable's last shelter" .
Secondly I'm not an internet fanatic.
John B:
> I have been scanning the considerable volume
> of mail on a fifth level. Apart from a visceral disgust at the proposals
that it will be some sort
> of super-mind, perhaps even the internet (I find this almost
unbelievable - I am not greatly
> enamored of the internet, and think it is grossly over-rated) I am
surprisingly unmoved by
> most suggestions to date.
Maybe John you thought I argued that Internet is/will be the fifth level?
Not at all. I use the net everyday for my job, and often for MoQ
discussions. When I say the Net is the environment for the 4th Level, I'm
not talking about the fifth level. And I'm not arguing I'm glad... I would
prefer being in a greek Agora, and fight Aristotle, but he died 2300 years
ago!
This is from Diana's bio: "actually I think I would be happy anywhere as
long as I had a Mac, a modem and decent bookstore nearby." She needs a Mac
and a modem! We all need Information technology: there's no way back. I
dislike a lot of internet tendencies: we are moving to a cultural entropy
(same market, same consumer goods, same language). I hope it will be at
least a good occasion for a new evolution jump, running away from entropy...
My opinion is that most of us have the tendency to see everywhere the
phantom of fifth level, just to say: " I was the first who saw it!". My "SF
novel" in the third part of my post, and all the ideas about a global brain,
or a "giant of intellect" are just talking about a possible (?) future for
the 4th level!
In the close future 4th level will act to gain a definitive control on
third. Then it will have all the chance to develop in a lot of different
forms... until , maybe, the Intellect Giant. I say again that we all never
see the fifth level, it's soon.
These JoVo words seem to meet my opinion:
> [internet users] get to
> know other people almost exclusively by their
> thinkings.They get to know about other peoples
> value patterns. What is not getting exchanged
> between them, is smell of their body, colour of
> skin, knowledge of their social status, knowledge
> of the amount of money they have, the way the are
> clothed and things like that (one could count up a
> lot more of that kind). Communicating via internet
> gives a lot more space to real, important
> (intellectual) messages, than it is possible in
> reality. What I was counting up before, is merely
> part of the social level, but it is no
> contradiction to my argumentation. We are not at
> the end of the intellectual level, we are not in
> the middle of it, we are at the beginning of it.
However, I don't want to run away form the month's focus.
Tor introduced a good question:
Tor:
> what does this
> higher level look like to a lower level?
>
Bo: (and many other Moffers...)
> Another MOQ
> postulate [...] is what we have
> agreed upon earlier: "A level doesn't recognize any level above
> itself".
Yes, I was not here at that time and I don't want to discuss it now. I hope
you accept also this sentence: "A level doesn't understand any level above
itself". I prefer "understand" 'cause I think it explains better the
"vertical" fight between the levels. And explains why at social level we
think that animals are "stupid"... and why at intellectual level we think
that Nazis are stupid!
So I like the "irrationality" idea about the fifth level. Surely a fifth
level man will be seen irrational (not stupid!), as he will be not
understood by 4th level people. I always feel that my cat thinks I'm
irrational when I go to job every morning!
DMB
> And sure, the fifth level will be static
> just like all the other levels, but it will be an expansion of freedom
> too. It won't be DQ, by definition it'll be a static level, but it will
> be more dynamic with a small "d". And I can't help but think it will be
> spiritual if not downright mystical. This feels like a pretty solid
> extrapolation to me. Whataya think?
>
Good!
IMHO I think fifth level will be based on Man... will be created by Man. Not
the bio - logic man: this one created 3rd level thousands years ago. Not the
social - logic man: this one created 4th level in 1918... The new man that's
coming is the 4th level man: this man will use intPoVs as the main patterns
in everyday life. When the great part of human beings will act this way,
they will be ready for the fifth. But... I argued that "Patterns of a level
exist already during the lower level age". That means that some 5th level
pattern could be already among us.
These are two good visions:
Magnus:
> .. in situations like these, when we're being
> irrational and exercising our so called "free will", we're knocking
> on the door to the 5:th level. We're still totally dependent on the
> intellectual level, we're talking and exchanging ideas. We could just
> as well just confuse the 5:th level with DQ, there's no way we could
> ever intellectually be certain about that. But we might some day be
> 5:th level-wise certain about it.
Denis:
> Meditation, hypnotism, trances are studied more and more frequently
> nowadays. Could the MOQ evolve into better ways of accessing DQ ? This
> would be a case of symbols supporting mystic awareness. In this view the
> MOQ would be the 'machine-code' between intellect and the fifth level.
> Who knows what we'll find in there ? New senses, a global brain, new
> worlds ? I think it's too early to speak about it, but I hope I'm right.
And now we come to the most important question: what's the MoQ level?
I asked Bo for it at least two times, and he did not answer. But in his last
post finally he asked me:
Bo
> Yes, I tried to adjust it to my SOLAQI that says that SOM is the Q-
> Intellect, but alas....! One moment you write in the vein of SOLAQI
> the next you lapse back into the view of Intellect as the "thinking"
> realm where various metaphysics vie for dominance. However, if
> you merely see Intellect - up to now - as a semi-social, and what is
> happening now is its real "coming of age" (not any stirring of a new
> level). Well, this is a blow to my pet idea and something I'll have to
> contemplate (but see below).
>
> About the agora and the Net is OK, but I have one reservation re.
> "horizontality". Archimedes asked for a fixed point and he would
> move the earth which means that one needs leverage OUTSIDE of
> the "object" one is to move. Is it possible to find such a fixed point
> INSIDE the intellectual level where the MOQ can be (re)move
> SOM? I have rejected the image of Intellect as a realm where
> something as enormous as the MOQ can coexist with something
> as enormous as SOM, and have proposed Intellect as SO-
> thinking itself and the Q idea as an external movement. Can you
> persuade me to think otherwise. Please do.
>
It's a long time I'm searching for a solution to bridge your SOLAQI with my
MOQ interpretation..
It's really late now... and I'm afraid to run out from the topic.
So I give only some brief sentences... Maybe it's not enough. I hope we will
go on about it, here, privately, or in MD...
In third level happened...
1) In different part of the world third level evolved to different "Giants"
(western democracies, Communism, Muslim theocracies...
2) SOMism is a way of thinking (i.e. intPoV) common to the great part of
western philosophy since 2000 years.
3) Eastern philosophy and some western philosophy are not SOMists (however
they also are intPoVs).
4) SOMism was the special weapon of western society. It was able to give a
"truth" to people. It was able to create a winner technology, full of
mistakes and injustice... with the society agreement.
ERGO... SOM is the main intPoV of third level age.
In fourth level it's happening...
1) Western society created the fourth level, by giving the power to intPoVs
(like public opinion).
2) Our "Giant" is going to win definitively his social battle.
3) A lot of people are everyday more disappointed for their "Quality of
life"; some of them search for the solution back to the bio - level; some of
them search for the solution back to the soc - level; some of them go on
thinking that SOM can find the solution at intLevel.
4) A new philosophy is coming on: MoQ. It's a new intPoV. It has founded the
cause of people disappointment. SOM promised the truth; MoQ, at the
contrary, promises Good (can this be your "leverage", Bo?).
In fourth level I hope it will happen...
1) A lot of people will recognize the intellectual superiority of MOQ.
2) MOQ will become the main intPoV of fourth level.
3) It will be able to solve a lot of social problems.
4) It will be able to develop to a lot of different forms (different MOQist
intPoVS), and some of these forms will be "better" then the others.
5) In the meanwhile a lot of new patterns will develop. Mysticism,
meditation, hypnotism, trances, and others (all patterns that intellect
defines as "irrational") will be used by some dynamic MOQ intPoV to gain a
new kind of awareness. This MOQist intPoV will be the winning intPoV (the
intellectual Giant).
6) New patterns will create an own 5th level to lead evolution.
This is a possible future. By this point of view, MOQ is the basis for the
"Winning intPoV". It's superior to SOM, 'cause SOM worked the most time at
third level, not 'cause MOQ is already in the fifth!
"Ciao" to all.
p.s.
Tor
> I'll have to look at the archives to see what SOLAQ is about.
>
Good Luck!
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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