Hello Jaap,
Welcome to MoQ Focus!
Hi Everyone,
Hope I've waited 24 hours...
>nature-nurture
>As I see it you could translate the nature-nurture problem to the following
>question: is the third level created by the second level or by DQ (the child
>will value it's parents/upbringers third level as DQ) ? For this question
>"both" is an accurate answer: the 2d level will never become more dynamicly
>on his own but DQ can't create a 3d level without a 2d level to start from.
>This relation between DQ and SQ in common is pointed out by Pirsig already.
>free will-determenism
>I think the answer for this problem is the same: both. Determenism only sees
>SQ but pure free will would be DQ. Now according to moq every action or
>decision originates from a combination of SQ and DQ.
Excellent, you just used the causation part to explain the examples
as well! The way I see it even at the inorganic level DQ can create
indeterminism (like experienced in Quantium Theory and Radiation),
and this can cause "Random" things to happen, allowing "free-will".
>causation
>In reference to the causation problem I like the creation as put forward by
>Tor, only I would call it re-creation. When I read his mail I had to think
>immediatly of Zeno and Leibniz. In answer to the four axioma's of Zeno
>Leibniz concluded that the only way to explain movement is that God
>re-creates all things in every moment,
Well that sure makes sense to a computer graphics programer, I still
to this day remember the awe of being explained as a kid how to
animate two graphics elements at the same time: You had to move each
one a single discrete step and it looked like movement! God as a
cartoon animist!
>he called this the idea of
>trans-creatio. When you replace this god by Quality
>(i.e. a combination of DQ and SQ) you have your world as an interaction of
>SQ and DQ.
>When you insist to have a causation you can say everything is caused by an
>interaction of SQ and DQ.
>
>When you say (as I do) that in the moq there is no causation you can say
>that the combination of SQ and DQ in a certain moment is valued by a new
>moment and thus a new combination.
>
>B values A = newDQ + newSQ values DQ + SQ
Yes, but perhaps we can't say "newDQ" because it's already gone;
Perhaps it's only B values A = newSQ values DQ + SQ.
One thought that has occurred to me when answering Bo's reply (about
the stove being hot propagating up thru levels) about causation,
which messes up my original answer, and perhaps makes the levels
fundamental after all:
Bo wrote:
>...happens all the time and that our actions and outlook makes it up
>through the levels. Not all originating at the inorganic, some at the
>biological, the social or even only taking place at the intellect.
Yes, this is correct, but this sentence combined with the determinism
topic and my quantum Quantium Theory bit above has made me think
about what happens in a single though process itself (Not really
propagating in the same way as the stove which is different steps
over time, but how a single event propagates up the levels)
If DQ creates a new idea at the intellectual level, a new/different
neurological process would have to have been the reason for it. If
the lower levels were behaving using static patterns, this shouldn't
be possible because then everything upwards would be deterministic.
I.e if the lower levels are all behaving deterministically, the
higher levels have to too.
My new idea is therefor that DQ ALLWAYS has to occur at the inorganic
level to allow DQ to happen at a higher level; So some quantumly
random process HAS to occur. The levels can pass it on without DQ
themselves, the biological level doesn't know that there's anything
special about a particular neuron firing, but at the intellectual
level DQ can dig it.
This is nice because it makes new thoughts dependant on randomness
which feels good and I think fit's in with neural theory.
For biology DQ most often come in the form of mutations that help
evolution, and mutations are caused by radiation! (Inorganic DQ)
At the social level I think DQ comes from the mind, so it doesn't
have such a cool relationship with Level1's DQ, but then again
Social/Intellectual's boundaries have always been kind of muddy :-)
But does this actually mean that the DQ "spark" only occurs at the
inorganic level? Yes, I think it does, but a Quality Event is still
happening at whatever level it ends up.
Well, that was a quantium leap for me!
-tor
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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