Hi David B. and all,
I am carrying over this discusion from the MQ Focus list, since the
official topic of discussion there has now changed. I hope eveyone
considers this action appropriate.
For the benefit of Non-MF subscribers, let me give a very brief summary
of the points of contention (for the full discussion, please refer to
the archives):
JONATHAN contrasted the "Tepee ceremony" under the influence of peyote,
with the bar-room "ceremony" (with which Lila opens) under the influence
of alcohol. A significant observation made was that Pirsig gives a much
more detailed and colourful description of the bar-room scene.
DAVID B. countered that there was no real similarity - Phaedrus felt
comfortable and "connected" in the teepee, but shows remorse and
discomfort waking up next to Lila the morning after the bar-room scene.
This is what I understood too. But my main question to Dave was why he
regarded the teepee scene as "mystical" and dynamic, but not the
bar-room. In particular, I noted how Pirsig describes the way the
Indians behave as completely "unceremonious", as if there was no ritual.
DAVID B.
>Ritual is the static behavior, the same actions and words
>are repeated over and over, like a Catholic Mass.
But surely, this repetition was exactly what the Indians were doing:
"Some time after midnight, after he had listened to the singing and
beating on the drums for hours and hours ..."
All that's missing is the lyrics, otherwise it's just as repetive as the
"DO A LITTLE DANCE . . .MAKE A LITTLE LOVE . . . GET DOWN TONIGHT. . ."
JONATHAN
While the teepee 'ceremony' sounds harmless, humanity also invented
other ceremonies like burning witches and sacrificing children.
DAVID B.
<<Frankly, this kind of thing makes me angry. Its dishonest and
conspicously irrelevant. Peyote ceremonies simply have nothing to do
with
torture or murder. It would be a case of guilt by association, which is
rarely valid, but you're the one who invented the association. Frankly,
I
think its ridiculous. And it angers me because its dishonest and it only
distracts us from genuine discussion of the issues.>>
David, I don't think this is irrelevant at all. I made no condemnation
of the specific ceremony Pirsig described, but noted that there is often
a sinister side to what we call ritual. I don't know any details, but
the Montana Indians once had cousins to the south who some suspect were
engaged in rituals involving human sacrifice; my suspicion is that
peyote (or something similar) was a part of those ceremonies too.
So finally, let me repeat my question to Dave:
Why does he consider the peyote-influenced teepee ceremony to be more
"mytical" and of higher quality/value than the numerous other events
Pirsig describes.
Jonathan
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