Seems to me the two are both dynamic, but ,moving in opposite
directions. The peyote example moving towards an "awareness" (fopr
lack of a better word) and the bar room scene moving away from
"awareness"
Of course, this could just be bias coming through on my part.
Shalom
David Lind
Trickster@postmark.net
Jonathan B. Marder wrote:
> Hi David B. and all,
> I am carrying over this discusion from the MQ Focus list, since the
> official topic of discussion there has now changed. I hope eveyone
> considers this action appropriate.
> For the benefit of Non-MF subscribers, let me give a very brief summary
> of the points of contention (for the full discussion, please refer to
> the archives):
>
> JONATHAN contrasted the "Tepee ceremony" under the influence of peyote,
> with the bar-room "ceremony" (with which Lila opens) under the influence
> of alcohol. A significant observation made was that Pirsig gives a much
> more detailed and colourful description of the bar-room scene.
>
> DAVID B. countered that there was no real similarity - Phaedrus felt
> comfortable and "connected" in the teepee, but shows remorse and
> discomfort waking up next to Lila the morning after the bar-room scene.
>
> This is what I understood too. But my main question to Dave was why he
> regarded the teepee scene as "mystical" and dynamic, but not the
> bar-room. In particular, I noted how Pirsig describes the way the
> Indians behave as completely "unceremonious", as if there was no ritual.
>
> DAVID B.
> >Ritual is the static behavior, the same actions and words
> >are repeated over and over, like a Catholic Mass.
>
> But surely, this repetition was exactly what the Indians were doing:
> "Some time after midnight, after he had listened to the singing and
> beating on the drums for hours and hours ..."
> All that's missing is the lyrics, otherwise it's just as repetive as the
> "DO A LITTLE DANCE . . .MAKE A LITTLE LOVE . . . GET DOWN TONIGHT. . ."
>
> JONATHAN
> While the teepee 'ceremony' sounds harmless, humanity also invented
> other ceremonies like burning witches and sacrificing children.
>
> DAVID B.
> <<Frankly, this kind of thing makes me angry. Its dishonest and
> conspicously irrelevant. Peyote ceremonies simply have nothing to do
> with
> torture or murder. It would be a case of guilt by association, which is
> rarely valid, but you're the one who invented the association. Frankly,
> I
> think its ridiculous. And it angers me because its dishonest and it only
> distracts us from genuine discussion of the issues.>>
>
> David, I don't think this is irrelevant at all. I made no condemnation
> of the specific ceremony Pirsig described, but noted that there is often
> a sinister side to what we call ritual. I don't know any details, but
> the Montana Indians once had cousins to the south who some suspect were
> engaged in rituals involving human sacrifice; my suspicion is that
> peyote (or something similar) was a part of those ceremonies too.
>
> So finally, let me repeat my question to Dave:
> Why does he consider the peyote-influenced teepee ceremony to be more
> "mytical" and of higher quality/value than the numerous other events
> Pirsig describes.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:00:41 BST