Hi All,
On the comparison of Pirsig's 4 levels to Wilber's many levels and 4
quadrants , after 3wd's comments will come my list of comparing the two.
----- Original Message -----
From: 3dwavedave <dlt44@ipa.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: MD Failure of the Enlightenment
> DMB, Bo, All
>
> > So, 3WD, I think those who disagree with the MOQ's levels have made an
epic
> > blunder. Such disagreement contradicts the perennial philospophy, the
> > saints, the sages and mountains of empirical evidence. Its foolish, to
say
> > the least.
>
> 3WD
> I'm not sure where you are coming from here. As you have said Pirsig's
> levels, Wilber's levels, and perennial philosophies levels are all very
> similar, I agree. Hell, I seem to recall I even developed a diagram
> which I sent to many members here (you may have even been one of them)
> trying to illustrate this possible correspondence between P & W levels.
>
> The only quibble I have with Pirsig's levels is your wacky
> interpretation of them, especially where the boundaries between levels
> lie. In particular what qualities rises to the level of "social" and
> "intellect". Both Bo and you seem to want to severely limit both by
> first saying, with Pirsig, that both are only human patterns of value.
> And second you both would push what qualifies as intellectual patterns
> to emerging sometime after the Greeks and limited only to such concepts
> as "democracy" or "human rights." etc. Ancient mathematic, astrology,
> calender making, writing, tool making, architecture, war making prior to
> the Greeks were all sans intellect. If this is your positions it is a
> misinterpretation of Pirsig, Wilber, and countless others. I just can't
> see any sense or value in it.
>
> If there is have a quibble between Pirsig's levels and those of the
> perennial philosophies it is that Pirsig stopped short. In Wilber's
> "Quantum Questions" he presents his simplest version of his "Great Nest"
> levels diagram which lists levels thus: 1 matter-physics, 2
> life-biology, 3 mind-psychology, 4 soul-theology, 5 spirit-mysticism.
> Pirsig's levels cover only the first three, no matter how you wish to
> redivide parts of 2 and/or 3 into (social)/(intellect). Anything above
> these ,within the MoQ, is within the mystical, undefined, realm of DQ.
>
> In explaining his diagram Wilbur says the level name or "domain", such a
> matter, also can be related to the experiencial "method", or one of the
> empirical pursuits used to explore that level. Cast your eyes on level 4
> "soul". The "method" Wilber claims that explores "soul" is "theology".
> Within what level does this pursuit lie in the MoQ ? And if it is not
> the intellect, please explain how a lower level pursuit bypasses the
> intellect on the way to study the higher?
> Or if it is the intellect, then when do you think "theology" first
evolved?
>
> 3WD
>
Gary's comments:
Pirsig Orthodoxy does restrict the 3rd Society level and the 4th Intellect
level to humans exclusively. To blend Pirsig with Wilber would make the 3rd
level Any Social/Communal activity of any animal [humans being one animal
species.] and the 4th level the internal experience and processing of the
biology of any individual animal. But this is not what Pirsig Orthodoxy
believes.
Actually, Wilber is also human centric in that his four quadrants start with
being inclusive of all matter & life organisms but quickly focus exclusively
on humans.
Anyway, Wilber divides everything by two sets of terms. They are Individual
[Ind]--Collective [Col], and External [Ext]--Internal [Int]. Making four
quadrants roughly:
The Ext-Ind is the structure of what makes the thing have the ability to
take action.
The Int-Ind is the level of a thing's 'thought' process
The ext-Coll is the 'Social' organizational activities. The tangible
evidence of a society & culture
The Int-Col is the level of a things 'Culture', The intangible stuff of a
society & culture.
Here is Pirsig's 4 levels and what Wilber would include under each of those
levels:
[my last caveat: Don't expect me to define all these terms, especially not
in this post. The purpose of this post is to show that Wilber gets chopped
up by using the framework of Pirsig's 4 levels. They two thinkers don't
match up neatly.] [All that I'm about to list can be found in Wilber's
books: "A Brief History of Everything" and/or "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality"]
1ST LEVEL INORGANIC:
Ext Ind
1.Atoms
2.Molecules
Int Ind
1. Prehension
2.Irritability
Ext Col
1. Galaxies
2. Planets
3. Gaia Systems
4.heterotrophic ecosystems
Int Col
1. Physical
2ND LEVEL ORGANIC
Ext Ind
3. prokaryotes
4.eukaryotes
5.neuronal organisms
6.neural cord
7.reptilian brain stem
8.limbic brain stem
9. neocortex (triune brain)
10. complex neocortex
Int-Ind
2.Irritability
3.sensation
4. perception
5. impulse
Int-Col
2. pleromatic
3.protoplasmic
4. vegetative
5.locomotive
Ext-Col
5. societies with division of labor [That is if animals have division of
labor?]
3RD LEVEL SOCIAL
Int-Col
7. Uroboric culture
8.Typhonic culture
9.Archaic culture
10.Magic culture
11. Mythic culture
12.Rational culture
13. Centauric culture [Unifying of mind & body? A culture based on MOQ?]
Ext-Col
5. societies with division of labor
6.groups/families
7.tribes
8.tribal/village
9. early state/empire
10. nation/state
11.planetary
4TH LEVEL INTELECT
Int-Ind
5. sensation
6. perception
7.impulse
8. emotion
9. symbols
10. concepts
11. concrete operational thinking
12 formal operational thinking
13. vision-logic
Whew, done. That's how Wilber would be broken up into Pirsig's 4 levels.
At least I think I've got it right.
Gary
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