Hi Platt, and all who lurk,
You raised and interesting point.
----- Original Message -----
From: Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness
> Hi Gary:
>
> Previously you agreed that this summarized your thesis:
>
> > > "The universe is made up of energy and matter and that is all, nothing
> > > else but this. What makes for the rich diversity of existence is
> > > structure. . . . I believe that Quality is the Internal aspect and
cause
> >> of the diverse configuration of structure Externally and Internally of
all
> >> energy and matter in the Universe on all levels. I believe that mind
and
> >> spirit are the internal experience and the internal attributes of the
> >> external arrangements of energy and matter."
>
> Your thesis raises the question about the role of Information in causing
> patterns and structure to evolve. You have asserted, "I believe that
> Quality is the ... cause of the diverse configuration of structure ..."
But
> many scientists (and nonscientists) would agree with the following
> excerpt from 'Grammatical Man: Information, Entropy, Language and
> Life' by Jeremy Campbell. In the theory he describes, it is Information
> that gives "shape to the shapeless:"
>
> "It was not until the 1940s that information was defined as a new
> scientific term, and this definition was quite new, unlike any in the
> standard dictionaries. Yet the concept of information, by being defined
> precisely enough to satisfy mathematicians and telecommunications
> engineers, became increasingly fascinating to nonscientists. The view
> arose of information as an active agent, something that does not just sit
> there passively but 'informs' the material world, much as the messages
> of the genes instruct the machinery of the cell to build an organism, or
> the signals from a radio transmitter guide the intricate path of a vehicle
> on its journey through space.
>
> "Thus information emerged as a universal principle at work in the world,
> giving shape to the shapeless, specifying the peculiar character of living
> forms and even helping to determine, by means of special codes, the
> patterns of human thought. In this way, information spans the disparate
> fields of space-age computers and classical physics, molecular biology
> and human communication, the evolution of language and the evolution
> of man.
>
> "Evidently nature can no longer be seen as matter and energy alone.
> Nor can all her secrets be unlocked with the keys of chemistry and
> physics, brilliantly successful as these two branches of science have
> been. A third component is needed for any explanation of the world that
> claims to be complete. To the powerful theories of chemistry and
> physics must be added a late arrival: a theory of information. Nature
> must be interpreted as matter, energy, and information."
>
> Comment: The only difference I can see between Information and
> Quality as far as being forces that create patterns or structures is that
> the Information Theory avoids any consideration of values. I wonder what
> you think about Information vs. Quality as an explanation for evolving
> patterns? Obviously you and the author of the passage above both
> agree that more is required to explain the world than just energy and
> matter. But if Information does the job of combining elements into
> structures and is the "cause the diverse configuration of structure," who
> needs Quality?
>
> Platt
>
> P.S. IMO, your explanation of the 4 levels as "a map of ethics" is right
> on target.
GARY'S COMMENTS: [1. I'm glad you like my idea of the 4 levels as 'maps of
ethics'. It is an intriguing idea.]
Anyway.... Hmm? Information = Quality? It seems that according to the
reference you gave, my use of Quality as the thing that gives structure to
all that exist, appears to be similar to the term 'information' as used in
that reference. But it does not quite feel right. Information may indeed
be similar to Quality, but Quality I believe is more than information.
Perhaps because I am saying that Quality is the origin of existence and
not only the thing that gives all existence its structure. Perhaps that is
the difference. I do not read in your cited reference that 'information' is
the creator of things. In that reference 'information' is associated with
being the reason for the structure but not the reason things exist. Am I
getting that right? I think that it is different to say that everything is
"matter, energy and information" in contrast to say "everything matter,
energy and Quality". Information can not lead the reader/thinker to
consider ethics, aesthetics, all sort of questions of values, etc. All of
those questions and ideas do not necessarily arise if we use the term
'information'. Thus the use of the term Quality instead of Information is
what I want to do.
And of course I have now come back to the very notion that you raised in
your comment. You said: "Comment: The only difference I can see between
Information and Quality as far as being forces that create patterns or
structures is that the Information Theory avoids any consideration of
values. " We are in agreement. Quality may be considered as similar to
information as used by that reference, but Quality can not be reduced to
'information'. It is the differences that are the most important!
Gary
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