Jon, Platt, Andre and Y'all:
DMB says:
JM's description of SOM was, I think, quite good. But his conclusion, that
the first three levels are enough and that there's no need for the fourth
level, was incorrect for many reasons. It seems Platt put his finger on the
best reason to reject JM's conclusion....
Platt said to Marder:
Since you live in Israel right in the middle of a social vs. intellectual
conflict, your denial of an intellectual level seems to me unimaginable.
Further, denying the intellectual level pulls the rug out from Pirsig's
analysis of the crises of modernity which is one of the major revelations
of the MOQ. Finally, your denial of the intellectual level sounds
suspiciously like "it's all in the mind" idealism which is probably not
your intention but I can see no way to escape that conclusion if all
patterns are, as you claim, intellectual.
DMB says:
Well, I'd characterize the conflict in Israel as a clash between two
differing sets of social patterns, but otherwise I completely agree with
Platt on this. (I know. I'm surprized too.) Denying the fourth level "pulls
the rug out from under Pirsig's analysis" in the biggest way. It destroys
the MOQ's ability to work as a moral compass and as an explanatory tool.
Since the MOQ is essentially a hierarchy of values, denying the 4th level
denies the highest level of static values. Accepting JM's idea would result
in a moral nightmare that is far worse than the one created by flatland's
scientific materialism. JM's conclusion would effectively put fascism,
fundamentalism and other hair-brained reactionary movements on the same
level as democracy, rights, pluralism, and the sciences. It would put Hitler
and Ghadi on the same level. It would put Socrates on the same level as
those who condemned him to die. It would put Galileo on the same level as
the Inquistors. It would erase the most important distinctions. It would rob
us of the ability to explain or solve most of the conflicts in the world. It
would rob us of the ability to understand intellectual history and the
evolution of humanity. Its an epic blunder. And as Platt says, this
conclusion sounds alot like idealism, or rather the worst kind of idealism.
To claim that "its all in the mind" is solipsism.
Andre said to Marder:
There is no need for any of the levels. They are
useful, yet arbitrary patterns which some people like
in order to have debate.
DMB says:
Arbitrary? I disagree entirely. As I pointed out last weekend, the idea that
reality is composed of a hierarchy of levels is expressed in all the world's
great religions AND it is confirmed by a mountain of empirical evidence.
There is plenty of room for debate as to the number of levels, as to the
best way to make distinctions and divisions between these levels and all
sorts of things. But to dismiss the "need for any of the levels" is a huge
mistake. The evidence in favor of a hierarchy of being is ancient,
universal, cross-cultural AND scientific. If anything can be considered to
be true, this is it. It is one of those things that's true on BOTH the 3rd
and 4th levels. It was true 10,000 years ago and its still true presently.
And speaking of the perennial philosophy...
I have to say that its strange that nobody has really responded to this
idea. (Except for 3WD's defensive back-pedaling) It seems to lend a great
deal of support to the MOQ and is a compelling idea all on its own, no? It
seems relevant in so many ways, no? Hmmm. I'm a little disappointed that
this idea didn't excite you. So, at the risk of beating a dead horse, let me
throw those Wilber quote at you once more.
"A TRULY INTEGRAL PSYCHOLOGY would embrace the enduring insight of
premodern, modern, and postmodern sources. To begin with the premodern or
traditional sources, the easiest access to their wisdom is through what has
been called the prennial philosophy, or the common core of the world's great
spiritual traditions. As Huston Smith, Arthur Lovejoy, Ananda Coomaraswamy,
and other scholars of these tradtions have pointed out, the core of the
prennial philosophy is the view that reality is composed of various LEVELS
OF EXISTENCE (emphasis is Wilber's) - levels of being and of knowing -
ranging from matter to body to mind to soul to spirit. Each senior dimension
transcends and includes its juniors, so that this is a conception of wholes
within wholes within wholes indefinitely, reaching from dirt to divinity."
"It should be realized from the start that these levels and sublevels
presented by the perennial sages are NOT the product of metaphysical
speculation or abstact hairsplitting philosophy. In fact, they are in almost
every case codifications of DIRECT EXPERIENTIAL REALITIES (emphasis is
Wilber's), reaching from sensory experience to mental experience to
spiritual experience. The "levels" in the Great Nest simply reflect the full
spectrum of being and consciousness available for direct experiential
disclosure, ranging from subconscious to self-conscious to superconscious.
... Such is the priceless gift of the ages. This is the core of the
perennial philosophy, and, we might say , it is the part of the perennial
philosophy that has empiricall benn found most dnduring. The evidence
continues overwhelmingly to mount in its favor: human beings have avaiable
to them an extraordinary spectrum of consciousness, reaching from
prepersonal to personal to transpersonal states. The critics who attempt to
deny this overall spectrum do so no by presenting conterevidence - but by
simply refusing to acknowledge the substantial evidence that has already
been amassed; the evidence, nontheless, remains."
Thanks for your time,
DMB
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