Hi David,
You are right I did chop up Wilber's map and I did decimate the notion of
Holon's by how I separate everything up. Further comments below.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Buchanan <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 3:55 PM
Subject: MD Comparison of the levels
> Gary and everyone interested in comparing Pirsig to Wilber:
>
> I think you've mixed things up pretty badly. For starters you've put
> into Wilber's heterotrophic ecosystems into Pirsig's inorganic level.
Clearly,
> any kind of ecosystem is biological and belongs at the organic level.
Also,
> the four quadrants represent the four aspects of a holon, which you seem
to
> grasp elsewhere. But the way you've put different numbers together betrays
> that idea. In the inorganic level, for example, there is only three
fourths
> of holon number two and one fourth of holon numbers 3 and 4. We can't chop
> holons up like that. It defies the definition of holon. The same chopping
> occurs in the next levels, only it gets increasingly worse as you go up
> through the levels. The social level, as you paint it here, lacks
> individuality entirely and the intellectual level has no collective or
> exterior dimensions at all. This just isn't how it works. Everything, that
> is to say EVERY THING, has all four dimensions. That's what the word
"holon"
> means. Its really pretty simple. Just match up the numbers in each
quadrant.
> In fact you can play a little game of connect the dots on Wilbers diagram
so
> that you have a series of increasingly larger squares or spheres.
>
> Naturally, I think this mistake has totally ruined your attempt to compare
> Pirsig and Wilber. I won't go into it very much yet, not until you get
what
> I'm saying about the necessity to include all four aspects of any given
> holon. But briefly, I think that Wilber's levels fit pretty easily into
the
> MOQ's levels. Its just that Wilber has more grades. For example, I think
> Wilbers archaic, magic and mythical all fit into Pirsig's 3rd level. And
all
> four aspects, not just the collective interior quadrant, have to be
included
> in that same 3rd level. They're stages within that level. Likewise there
are
> several stages within the 4th level. And beyond that Wilber has spiritual
> levels that all fit into Pirsig code of art idea, where DQ itself becomes
a
> real factor in one's outlook and being.
>
> Its not easy to talk about this without charts and stuff. I hope it makes
> sense. In any case, Gary's comparison is below. That's it from me. Thanks
> for your time,
> DMB
Gary's response: My main purpose in the comparison below is to show that I
do not think that Wilber and Pirsig's map are exactly the same. Which is
why I do think you have to chop up Wilber's map to fit into Pirsig's MOQ-E
map as given in Lila. Pirsig purposely denies a social level to everything
but humans in Lila. Wilber has a 'social'-like level for everything.
Pirsig makes the Q-Intellect (level 4) exclusively human, while Wilber would
consider everything to have a sort of interior aspect which eventually
becomes Q-Intellect in humans.
As for the mistake of putting "Wilber's heterotrophic ecosystems into
Pirsig's inorganic level" I will assume you are correct. I confess I didn't
really know what 'heterotrophic meant. I was lazy and didn't look it up or
I forget if Wilber did explain it.
What I was trying to do with the list below is to get anyone who was
interested to consider the two maps. I do think that Pirsig has no notion
of Holons, no idea of interior-exterior, no notion of all things having a
'collective'/ Social aspect. And thus Wilber's map gets chopped up when put
under the 4 tiered MOQ-E map of Pirsig.
My Wilber list under Pirsig MOQ-E Map is below.
Note: Ext=Exterior aspects of a Holon, Ind=Individual aspects of a Holon,
Int=Interior aspects of a Holon, Col=Collective aspects of a Holon.
>
> 1ST LEVEL INORGANIC:
> Ext Ind
> 1.Atoms
> 2.Molecules
> Int Ind
> 1. Prehension
> 2.Irritability
> Ext Col
> 1. Galaxies
> 2. Planets
> 3. Gaia Systems
> > Int Col
> 1. Physical
>
> 2ND LEVEL ORGANIC
> Ext Ind
> 3. prokaryotes
> 4.eukaryotes
> 5.neuronal organisms
> 6.neural cord
> 7.reptilian brain stem
> 8.limbic brain stem
> 9. neocortex (triune brain)
> 10. complex neocortex
> Int-Ind
> 2.Irritability
> 3.sensation
> 4. perception
> 5. impulse
> Int-Col
> 2. pleromatic
> 3.protoplasmic
> 4. vegetative
> 5.locomotive
> Ext-Col
> 4. heterotrophic ecosystems
5. societies with division of labor [That is if animals have division of
> labor?]
>
> 3RD LEVEL SOCIAL
> Int-Col
> 7. Uroboric culture
> 8.Typhonic culture
> 9.Archaic culture
> 10.Magic culture
> 11. Mythic culture
> 12.Rational culture
> 13. Centauric culture [Unifying of mind & body? A culture based on MOQ?]
> Ext-Col
> 5. societies with division of labor
> 6.groups/families
> 7.tribes
> 8.tribal/village
> 9. early state/empire
> 10. nation/state
> 11.planetary
>
> 4TH LEVEL INTELECT
> Int-Ind
> 5. sensation
> 6. perception
> 7.impulse
> 8. emotion
> 9. symbols
> 10. concepts
> 11. concrete operational thinking
> 12 formal operational thinking
> 13. vision-logic
>
> Whew, done. That's how Wilber might be broken up into Pirsig's 4 levels.
At least that is an attempt. I am not saying and I am commited to this list
as being correct. It is only thinking as a public act. Feel free to
reconfigure this list in any way that you think would be more appropriate.
I would be interested to see it.
Trying to be emulate the Taoist Wu-wei principle, action without agression,
Gary
> >
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