To: Platt and Elliot
From: Rog
Platt, I agree completely with your assessment of Pirsig's likely reasoning
to consider Socialism as a low grade intellectual pattern.
As for Elliot...
ELLIOT (cut'n paste)
This system [capitalism], created of reason... is IRRATIONAL... waste,
inefficieny, absurdity, irrationality and lack of compassion
are built directly INTO the system.
ROG:
Free markets do indeed lead to various irrational outcomes. One clear
example is the problem known as "arms races." This is the tendency in
evolution, warfare and economics for competitors to get locked into a
viscious cycle of competition. For example, Coke and Pepsi are involved in
an arms race over advertising and marketing. Each spends a disproportionate
share of the cost of the product trying to outmarket the other. The net
result is the irrational outcome of neither actually gaining an advantage on
the other, but of both products being artificially expensive. It can be
argued that they would both be wiser to agree not to advertise and to spend
less on packaging or marketing.
Despite this and other irrationalities in free markets, the fact remains that
though far from perfect, over the long run, free markets are more efficient
and more dynamic than other economic systems -- at least if kept to realms
where they work (they obviously don't in many situations -- see my previous
post).
You are also correct that capitalism isn't the model of compassion.
ELLIOT:
It is precisely the brutality of capitalism which
makes it better than socialism (you dont have a nessicary skill, you WILL
starve, so figure one out and dont be lazy), but is there really nothing
else? does evolution stop right here, never to trancend capitalism? do we
wait for someone else to formulate the new possibilities, denying even their
possible exsistance? what we have here, the inability to negate capitalism
because "its more dynamic than socialism (and less cruel than maoism or
facism)" is what wilber calls the mythic rational. this is why those who
support NOT MARXISM but the next stage of social organization sound like
they consider themselves more evolved (because it requires more evolution!
if you stop evolving and just accept whats given, you deny part of life, you
accept a little bit of the static pattern of death).
ROG:
You seem to argue against a straw man here. What society is purely
capitalistic? All modern states have various rules, regulations, safety
nets, programs etc to control and supplement free enterprise.
I do agree though that we should look to better social solutions in the
future. We should strive to progresss. This is what the 9 month "Is Society
Making Progress" thread between Wim and me is about.
ELLIOT:
Any society based solely on techological
imparitives which deny Quality will promote unfreedom and suffering, the
next stage requires something else. Im sorry if it sounds silly to you, but
ceasing evolution for technological progress sounds silly to me, especially
if people still think killing, manipulation, stealing and all the rest are
all right (as they technically are under science but not under mysticism).
ROG:
Who is advocating ceasing evolution for technological progress? Do you
really believe people think killing and stealing are all right? Do you really
believe scientists even think this way? Who or what are you arguing with?
Rog
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