Mary wrote:
Did he check DNA?
Mary, to be honest with you, to attempt to explain this in such a short
space is impossible. of course DNA is a logical candidate, and from what i
understand, there is still hope that DNA research will uncover the problem
of instinctual or unlearned behavior. but there are other researchers who
say this will not happen. Sheldrake seems to doubt DNA as the carrier for
instinctual learning, but i would read the book and make my own opinion.
Mary wrote:
Please tell me where Pirsig mentions this. I want to read it. I love the
part about "a more perfect reality", because as you'll see below it fits in
so well with my thoughts. He said, a more perfect reality. That is not the
same thing as "using the intellect directly".
Mary, Pirsig goes into this in chapter 3 of Lila where he tells of attending
peyote sessions with his friend Dussenberry. he says:
"The Indians who use it as part of their ceremony might with equal accuracy
call it a "de-hallucinogen", since its their claim that it removes the
hallucinations of contempory life and reveals the reality buried beneath
them.
There is actually some scientific support for this Indian point of view.
Experiments have shown that spiders fed LSD do not wander around doing
purposeless things as one might expect a "hallucination" would cause them to
do, but instead spin abnormally perfect, symmetrical web[s]. That would
support the "de-hallucinogen" thesis." (page 40, Bantam paperback)
i would say that this is using the intellect by temporally shunting aside
every day social restraints that keep our reality in place. but you write:
How did you get that out of it? I don't agree with the idea that
instinctive behavior is always or necessarily derived from intellect. In
fact, I'm not sure that it ever is. Instinctive behavior could well be
derived from a biological pattern in much the same way that the cooperation
of cells to make a biological entity is. Perhaps an instinct is an Idea of
the biological level. That is, a Dynamic Quality of the biological level.
Mary, you could be right. but tell me, what is it that cooperates? even
between the cells of the body? this is a puzzler of of a question.
Mary wrote:
You may recall my earlier post on "ideas" as the Dynamic Force in the
universe. This strays from Pirsig, but only a little bit. He never uses
the word "ideas" for it, but it resonates with me. Pirsig poses the
question, "It seems clear that no mechanistic pattern exists toward which
life is heading, but has the question been taken up of whether life is
heading away from mechanistic patterns?" (Chapter 11, about the middle).
Yes, what a great question! But how does this happen? What drives all 4
Static levels forward? Pirsig says Dynamic Quality, but what is that? The
analogy for DQ I like is "ideas".
Mary, in Sheldrakes book, he examines three different theories of life...the
mechanistic (which includes DNA), the vitalist and the organicist. the
third, the organicist, does seem to move away from the mechanistic version
that is the prevailing way of thinking today. and oddly, that is the theory
he most supports.
Mary writes:
Let me summarize.
1) "Ideas" are the force for Dynamic Quality in the Universe.
2) "Ideas" exist at every Static level.
a) Inorganic "ideas" led to the promotion of the carbon chain, and thus
the precursors of life.
b) Biological "ideas" led to cooperation between individual cells to
create more complex forms.
c) The same kind of Biological "ideas" that led to cellular cooperation
were also instrumental in the invention of instinctive behavior to
facilitate the success of the biological forms - i.e. species level
cooperation.
3) The lowest form in the Social level is one based on instinctive behavior
derived from the Biological level.
4) Thought (i.e. the Intellectual level) operates on a higher and different
level from instinctive behavior.
5) Thought and societies based on thought developed at the same time because
thinking about Social interaction was the first kind of thing the
Intellectual level was interested in thinking about.
6) The Intellectual level is just a newer, higher, better way of
manipulating "ideas" (Dynamic Quality).
So, when Pirsig talks about uncovering a more perfect reality, he's talking
about uncovering Dynamic Quality. The spider experiment could be analogous
to unveiling the biological level "idea" of species cooperation. The LSD
could be a way to show this. Give the spiders some drugs to disable their
Intellectual level and see how they behave. How you see them behave then
becomes a window into pre-intellectual Biological "ideas", or Dynamic
Quality. It fits.
Mary, IF instincts arise at the biological level, which i admit is tempting
to say, we have to say they arise at a physical place in the body we can
point to. right now that is not possible. it might be that one day it will
become possible and then i could agree with your reasoning. until that day
though, i prefer to think of instinct as an intellect level phenomena that
conceives of the reality we each experience.
i like Platts quote from a couple days ago:
The intellectual level can be defined as my singular private thought
patterns and yours and everyone else’s–-individually. When I or you put
them out for others to see on the LS or elsewhere, they become seminal
social patterns that may or may not conceive.
my comment:
we individually all have private thought patterns that are built on
instinctually constructed consciousness. it is clear that instinctual
patterns must have been at work before actual consciousness. and this leads
to the conclusion that the intellect must be at work as instinct...working
outside of time so to speak, conceiving of the Quality Event before it
occurs.
best wishes,
glove
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