Hi Glove, Mary and Squad
> "The Indians who use it as part of their ceremony might with equal accuracy
> call it a "de-hallucinogen", since its their claim that it removes the
> hallucinations of contempory life and reveals the reality buried beneath
> them.
>
> There is actually some scientific support for this Indian point of view.
> Experiments have shown that spiders fed LSD do not wander around doing
> purposeless things as one might expect a "hallucination" would cause them to
> do, but instead spin abnormally perfect, symmetrical web[s]. That would
> support the "de-hallucinogen" thesis." (page 40, Bantam paperback)
>
> i would say that this is using the intellect by temporally shunting aside
> every day social restraints that keep our reality in place. but you write:
>
> How did you get that out of it? I don't agree with the idea that
> instinctive behavior is always or necessarily derived from intellect. In
> fact, I'm not sure that it ever is. Instinctive behavior could well be
> derived from a biological pattern in much the same way that the cooperation
> of cells to make a biological entity is. Perhaps an instinct is an Idea of
> the biological level. That is, a Dynamic Quality of the biological level.
Mary, I wouldn't have chosen the word 'Idea' but that doesn't matter as much as
the rest of what you say. Instinctive behaviour is the static result of generations of
dynamic interaction at the biological level. Instincts are the static latch of
biology's ability and determination to overcome reversion to inorganic patterns
(death) in many different and complex situations. Remove intellect and society
from humans and what are you left with? The instinct to survive. Damn right it's
DQ at work.
Glove, the de-hallucination idea that Pirsig mentions is spot on. The peyote
experience that Pirsig describes is the stripping away of the STATIC social
patterns which seek to dominate Intellect to reveal the patterns that are
suppressed by the group hallucination of social dominance. Pirsig talks about his
experience of insanity in VERY similar terms - the removal of the STATIC social
restraints. In some ways the effects of hallucinogens are a form of insanity - to
___SOCIAL___ PoV's. Insanity, as with hallucinogens can have a positive side -
The MoQ and experience of unshackled reality - and a negative side - getting
locked up and brainwiped or the horrors. Hallucinogens are not the only way to
produce these sort of effects but they are probably the quickest way.
GLOVE:
> Mary, you could be right. but tell me, what is it that cooperates? even
> between the cells of the body? this is a puzzler of of a question.
The cells of your body co-operate to produce the social PoV's that result in a
unique you. A body is one form of Social PoV's, government or multinational
corporations are another form.
MARY:
> So, when Pirsig talks about uncovering a more perfect reality, he's talking
> about uncovering Dynamic Quality. The spider experiment could be analogous
> to unveiling the biological level "idea" of species cooperation. The LSD
> could be a way to show this. Give the spiders some drugs to disable their
> Intellectual level and see how they behave. How you see them behave then
> becomes a window into pre-intellectual Biological "ideas", or Dynamic
> Quality. It fits.
I'm not to sure about the intellectual level of a spider in this sense, but I think
you're dead right about the Biological/DQ interaction. The LSD breaks down the
static aspect of the spiders biological patterns - the Quality Event.
GLOVE:
> Mary, IF instincts arise at the biological level, which i admit is tempting
> to say, we have to say they arise at a physical place in the body we can
> point to. right now that is not possible. it might be that one day it will
> become possible and then i could agree with your reasoning. until that day
> though, i prefer to think of instinct as an intellect level phenomena that
> conceives of the reality we each experience.
Glove if you consider the massive interaction within the brain and the sort of
complexity that this represents then there is no need to place instincts at the
intellectual level. There is also no need to insist that any one location in the brain
is responsible for a particular behaviour. It is the complex interaction and the
emergent patterns that govern instinctive behaviour. When chemicals of various
types are introduced into the brain the interaction is altered in often unpredictable
ways.
Horse
***********************************************************************
"Prejudice is the greatest labour saving device known to man,
it enables one to form an opinion without having to go to
the trouble of checking the facts.
Quote from Stephen Fry - Source Unknown
(Could be Oscar Wilde ??)
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