From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Fri Oct 15 2004 - 00:23:03 BST
David,
"Better Science" ... agreed.
Short-termism and a dozen other kinds of bad governance are the direct
result of justifying / rationalising decisions based on simple, objective,
causal, scientific logic instead of complex reality and the need to manage
many different emergent effects with few (if any) causal relationships. MoQ
is one such pragmatic framework for questions of balance - a better
"science".
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Morey" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: MD On Faith
> Hi Horse
>
> However, governments do claim to make rational decisions
> based on scientific facts, often covering up that they are
> really dealing in values. Also they fund science and can
> control the science we get. But overall I don't think we are
> that far apart. I just have a suspicion that the science we have
> because of its metaphysics is giving us technology, coupled
> with consumerist short termism and dumbing down, etc,
> is part of the problem. Better science, however, I hope is
> part of the solution.
>
> DM
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Horse" <horse@darkstar.uk.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:08 AM
> Subject: Re: MD On Faith
>
>
> > Hi David
> >
> > On 11 Oct 2004 at 18:38, David Morey wrote:
> >
> > > > > It is only in memory of these tragedies that a scientific outlook
> > > > > can avoid & resist the temptation to lose contact with the
humanity
> it needs to inspire rather than obscure.
> > > >
> > > > What tragedies are we talking about here. I'm aware that
_technology_
> has been
> > > > misused over and over again but this is not the point I'm making.
> Science as a belief
> > > > system has not instigated violence against those that do not accept
> its beliefs. Religion
> > > > has and continues to do so. Scientists have not burned people at the
> stake for heresy or
> > > > tortured people in order to convert them to their system of beliefs.
> > >
> > > Well it depends on how far you want to associate science with secular
> > > forms of government and society that are on occassions violent, etc.
> >
> > I think you can associate Science with most modern governments as most
> will fund it to
> > some degree in order to reap the benefits of the technologies that fall
> out from it.
> > However, this does not mean that governments are centered on Science or
> that any
> > government is acting to bring about a Science-based belief system. Far
> from it.
> >
> > > Also there is the link between science and authority and control and
> defining normal
> > > as described by Foucault and experienced by Pirsig as ECT. Do not
> misunderstand me,
> > > I am pro-science, but not rosy-tinted pro.
> >
> > There is a tendency to confuse Science with technology which leads to
the
> idea that
> > because some form of authority uses technology it is acting on behalf of
> Science. This
> > needs to be corrected. Science has it's shortcomings and it's bigots but
> it is a very
> > Dynamic system and, in my opinion, has much more to offer in many ways
> than other
> > systems. As you say though we should not see it through rose-tinted
> glasses but should
> > be critical of its shortcomings and bigotry where it arises. I think
this
> would be welcomed
> > by most in the scientific community and is the best way for it to
evolve.
> >
> > > Also maybe the excessive violence of
> > > any system of belief occurs when it has to defend itsself, and to date
> science
> > > has been without challenge.
> >
> > In modern terms I would broadly agree with you but if you look back over
> the centuries I
> > think Science has been attacked many times and has only survived by the
> tenacity of
> > those who understand it's value. Galileo and Darwin come to mind.
> >
> > > I think it is due a number of challenges, that somehow
> > > full human flourishing will need to go hand in hand with a
> re-enchantment of the cosmos
> > > and this would require a very different sort of science, one that
> recognised
> > > DQ as much as SQ I would suggest.
> >
> > I think so too. Materialism has been the dominant belief in Science for
a
> long time but as
> > Science struggles to explain phenomena beyond the merely physical this
> will eventually
> > change. As with other systems though, there is still a lot of momentum
to
> be overcome.
> >
> > > > > But can science inspire humanity? Does it deliver community and
> shared values?
> > > >
> > > > Has religion inspired humanity or just scared them shitless? Science
> can
> > > > and does inspire people (as opposed to humanity).
> > > > You may disagree with them or their beliefs safe in the knowledge
that
> the equivalent of
> > > > the Inquisition won't be breaking down your door and requesting that
> you
> > > > either do otherwise or they'll hand you your liver for closer
> inspection!
> > > > Science delivers community and shared values within the scientific
> belief system.
> > >
> > > I see your point, but maybe things are more subtle now, that people
with
> > > challenging beliefs just don't get the jobs, eg Pirsig with his
awkward
> > > questions.
> >
> > Anyone who challenges an incumbent authority (in this case the authority
> is Science)
> > will have a hard time getting heard. This is the 'cultural immune
system'
> to which Pirsig
> > refers. But to the credit of Science and scientists, if the ideas are
> fundamentally sound
> > they will eventually get through.
> >
> > > > > Or does it deliver techno-fantasies where people live in luxurious
> house-prisons?
> > > > > Where more & more adults seem to be more & more like children?
> > > >
> > > > Not sure what you mean by this exactly. Is there something wrong
with
> enjoying the
> > > > benefits that science has provided. I and the majority of people on
> this list are alive due
> > > > to the benefits science has delivered. I just wish that more people
> could enjoy these
> > > > benefits. I agree that sometimes scientists can run off at the mouth
> about their pet
> > > > projects but so what - you don't have to believe them or even listen
> to them. I seriously
> > > > doubt they will threayen you with visions of eternal damnation if
you
> do so. Even the
> > > > more fundamental variety of scientist.
> > > > And what are these luxurious house-prisons you refer to. I don't
know
> any - the only
> > > > house prisons that I know of are due to peoples fear of violence.
> What's this got to do
> > > > with science.
> > >
> > > Well science makes possible these attempts of people to cut themselves
> off
> > > from social chaos, violence, etc. It seems an odd form of utopia where
> we
> > > all fear each other and try to live on isolated islands. Don't you
think
> we have
> > > lost our common life?
> >
> > To an extent I do, but as I said above this is more due to technology
than
> to Science.
> > However, technology also has it's up side in this respect. If not for
> technology, we
> > wouldn't be having this conversation and the Internet wouldn't exist. To
> many in political
> > and economic authority, the Internet is very scary which is why there
have
> been so
> > many attempts to control it - so far most of them have failed (or had
> limited success).
> > This may not continue forever though.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Unless perhaps we can find that human beings have got more in
common
> with
> > > > > something like DQ than well made mechanisms.
> > > >
> > > > Can't we have both? A well made mechanism, such as a motorcycle, and
> it's use can
> > > > lead to high volumes of DQ. Wasn't there a book about it? ;^)
> > >
> > > Yes that's the goal, using technology to deliver more DQ, but are we
> doing
> > > that at the moment?
> >
> > I'm really not sure. I think that there are certain vested interests who
> really don't
> > appreciate the freedom that could be accomplished by technology and will
> use violence
> > in various forms to suppress it. But I think that one lesson that should
> be learned from
> > history is that the move towards greater freedom will not be stopped.
> Hindered maybe,
> > but I still hold out great hopes for the tenacity of the human spirit
and
> it's refusal to lay
> > down and die. Call me an incurable optimist if you want but that's what
I
> believe - it just
> > takes time.
> >
> >
> > See ya
> >
> >
> > Horse
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> > Mail Archives:
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> >
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> >
>
>
>
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