RE: MD On Faith

From: Horse (
Date: Mon Oct 18 2004 - 00:43:59 BST

  • Next message: David Buchanan: "RE: MD On Faith"

    Hi Platt

    On 14 Oct 2004 at 18:37, Platt Holden wrote:

    > Hi Horse,
    > > I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here as I can't see why either Science
    > > or Humanism should be included with Communism.
    > Well, I've read the Humanist Manifesto several times and can find little
    > that disagrees with the Communist Manifesto. Both reject religious faith
    > and mysticism of any kind. Humanism goes even further than Communism
    > redistributing income. It wants to reduce income disparities worldwide.
    > The only way any redistribution can happen, of course, is involuntarily,
    > which means, at the point of a government gun. Perhaps you can enlighten
    > me on the difference in economic philosophy of these two ideologies of
    > nonbelievers.

    'Fraid not. I've never really had too much interest in either Communism or Humanism to
    be able to give you a coherent answer. What I would say with regard to previous
    comments is that if the Humanists can achieve their aims peacefully then more power to
    them as this is entirely in line with the MoQ. As far as I know they have never advocated
    or been involved in violence and this is against their principles (as stated in their

    > >And as with Science, I don't
    > > know of any attrocities committed in the name of Humanism. Have there been
    > > any? Both Communism and Fascism have been associated with attrocities as
    > > has Religion. Wouldn't it be better, using your own reasoning, to lump
    > > Communism, Fascism and Religion together as belief systems which have been,
    > > and still are, responsible for the deaths of millions and thus of very low
    > > Quality. At the same time, Science and Humanism (which to the best of my
    > > knowledge has not had attrocities associated with it) should be considered
    > > as very high Quality and praised accordingly, given their high degree of
    > > intellectual content and DQ nature. This would make more sense to me.
    > If, as I suggest, there's little difference between Communism and
    > Humanism, your point about atrocities becomes mute.

    Not at all. If Humanism hasn't committed attrocities, eschews violence, continues to act
    peacefully and it's main weapon is argument then there is a world of difference. If you
    put the track records of Fascism, Communism, Religion, Science and Humanism side by
    side and compare then, as I said before, the last 2 are of much higher value than the
    first 3.

    > > A couple of minor points. As far as I know Dawkins is a Humanist (or
    > > atleast supports it) and not a pagan - many aspects of Paganism (those
    > > lumped under the term) are strongly associated with Religion (think Wicca).
    > > Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge organisation were trained and supplied by both the UK
    > > and the US (SAS on the part of the UK and the US Special Forces). Both the
    > > US and the UK supported Pol Pot during the years of the 'Killing Fields'.
    > > This is a matter of record and not just some crazy conspiracy theory -
    > > Thatcher admitted using the SAS to supply and train the Khmer Rouge to the
    > > UK parliament in 1989.
    > If UK and US supported Pol Pot during the years of the 'Killing Fields'
    > I'll bet it wasn't to the extent of our friend Noam Chomsky who waxed
    > ecstatic about Pol Pot and his partner in atrocities, Ho Chi Min. :-)

    As I remember, Noam Chomsky's view changed as the attrocities of Pol Pot were
    revealed and he became a strong critic of both Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. The US
    and the UK continued to train the Khmer Rouge and supply arms (including thousands
    of land mines) until it became expedient not to. There was little condemnation by either
    the US or UK. So in answer to the above, you'd lose that bet.

    See ya


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