Re: MD On Faith

From: Mark Steven Heyman (
Date: Fri Oct 29 2004 - 02:16:00 BST

  • Next message: ml: "Re: MD On Faith"

    On 28 Oct 2004 at 13:10, Erin wrote:
    msh says:
    When you say you prefer the painting to the wall, you are not saying
    Quality exists, you are demonstrating it. You are making a Quality
    judgment, which is in itself evidence that Quality exists. There's
    no need, and no way, to investigate further.

    Erin: I agree in the direct experience of value of the painting but
    I don't know about demonstrating. If another person thought the
    painting was so ugly the bare wall did look better, how was it

    msh says:
    This is a different question. Why do people sometimes disagree about
    the objects in which Quality resides? In ZMM Phaedrus says something
    like there's disagreement about Quality because some people react to
    it emotionally, while others apply their overall experience and
    knowledge. He wasn't happy with this answer because he thought it
    would mean there are now two kinds of Quality, Romantic and
    Classical. As I recall he never quite resolves this problem, but
    instead goes on to say that Quality is neither subjective nor
    objective, but something different. That reality is made up of a
    "holy trinity" of Quality, Subjects and Objects.

    But I think his answer has some promise. As I mentioned earlier...
    Well here's what I said:
    "...people often fail to see the value in valuable things for a
    variety of reasons, one of the most common being discomfort with the
    unfamiliar. Though we often appear to be far apart in our value
    estimations, we need not be. If everyone's ground of experience was
    equally broad I'd expect the discrepancies to all but disappear. We
    share a common humanity, after all."

    So one way to solve the problem might be to try to broaden our ground
    of experience. Maybe the person who likes the painting and the one
    who likes the wall should get together and talk it over. It may be
    that the wall guy sees walls as a kind of found art. Maybe he likes
    the texture, or values the way a certain crack ripples and spreads
    into a subtle off-color stain. Or the painting-person might point
    out some beautiful but subtle effect in the painting that the wall
    person had missed. In sharing, their bases of experience become
    broader, and their chance of quality agreement more likely.

    msh said before:
    However, I guess if you choose to accept the strict scientific sense
    of the word "empiricism", that "observation" means "measurement" and
    there's no other way to arrive at knowledge, and reject the broader,
    philosophical sense, you won't be convinced by my arguments.

    erin said:
    I don't reject the experiences you are talking about I just prefer to
    call them experiences rather than empirical evidence

    msh says:
    No way I can argue with a preference! ;-)


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