Re: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101

From: Phaedrus Wolff (
Date: Tue Dec 21 2004 - 02:16:42 GMT

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    Hi msh,

    As I think I was the first to claim Socrates was a mystic, I feel I need to
    explain this some.

    My first question might be "What is a mystic experience?"

    For this, I must answer a mystic experience might be something that shows
    you a truth that you couldn't have discovered from any realities as you know
    them. If you reach out and touch a tree, and feel that touching this tree is
    the same as touching your own skin, would you consider that as a mystical
    experience, or something that you have heard speak of, and accepted as being
    true, and making sense?

    If it is something you have heard of, then that might limit it to a point.
    But, I have heard the Milky Way is going to open up and we will get a glimse
    of the sun behind the Milky Way (black hole). If someone says they have seen
    it, and I come to believe they have, without ever seeing it myself, then I
    am open minded, but not a mystic. If I see it, then this is a mystic
    experience, as it is not something that is accepted as reality -- at least
    not reality to those I socialize with.

    My question as to whether Socrates was a mystic or not might be easily
    answered. Love and beauty, I know he had some exposure to through the
    Sophists who went before him. But, this 'soul' thing -- he described it so
    well, detailed down to the whole life structure of the soul, as well as the
    reincarnation nature of the soul. Had someone before him taught him this? I
    might ask the question "How did he come across this information?"

    Am I wrong? Was he a mystic, or just one of those imitative poets he so

    You might ask the same question about Pirsig and this idea that Quality is
    before, in, and after everything. How did he come about this information?
    Did he read it somewhere? Did someone else teach it to him?

    Even if he found it through arguing between his two personalities, this in
    my belief would be a mystical experience.

    Maybe the mystic is just someone who does not go with the flow.

    I like what (George) Bernard Shaw wrote;
    "The reasonable man persists in adapting to the world around him. The
    unreasonable one persists in adapting the world to him. Therefore all
    progress in the world depends on the unreasonable man."

    After reading some of what Shaw wrote, I might consider him to be a mystic
    as well. These crazy ideas these guys come up with has to come from
    somewhere. Where?

    They may just be unreasonable men. If so, that doesn't say much for the
    reasonable man. Huh?


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <>
    To: <>
    Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:22 PM
    Subject: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101

    > Hi all,
    > Please humor me with this thread. I feel I need to get a handle on
    > this mysticism stuff, and how it relates to the MOQ and to philosophy
    > in general. I'm enjoying the learned discussion carried on for,
    > what, years now between Sam and DMB, and believe I'm getting a feel
    > for the general idea; but now I'm hearing that Socrates was a mystic,
    > and William Blake, and Joan of Arc, and maybe Pirsig, and Augustine
    > and Francis of Assisi, and Edgar Allen Poe, and Dylan Thomas and
    > Frank Zappa (well maybe that was me who said that)... But you get the
    > idea...
    > So, some questions: do any human beings live a more or less normal
    > life-span, and NOT have several mystical experiences? Is mystical
    > revelation the rule or the exception, OR the sine qua non, of being
    > human? Is a mystical experience something more than briefly "seeing"
    > that reality is undivided, seeing the veins in a flower and knowing
    > they are yours? Knowing that killing anything is killing a part of
    > yourself? Touching the bark of a tree and touching one's own skin,
    > and knowing that what you touch are one and the same? That is,
    > what's the difference between a "Mystic" and me?
    > As usual, thanks for any thoughtful comments.
    > Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
    > --
    > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
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