Re: MD God relieves from suffering?

From: johnny moral (
Date: Tue Apr 15 2003 - 22:06:21 BST

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    This post also left something out I wish I had said:

    That "pure morality", or "descriptive" morality that I wrote about, the
    different kind of morality that is NOT the "spoken morality" Rorty says is
    on a continuum with prudence - is the ontological morality that Pirsig says
    everything is. Everything is NOT prudence, everything is patterns, aka
    expectations, aka Morality, whether prudent or not.


    >From: "johnny moral" <>
    >Subject: Re: MD God relieves from suffering?
    >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:09:38 +0000
    >Hi Matt, all,
    >>Matt said:
    >>I simply want to add the context to what the Rorty quote refers to. Rorty
    >>advocates getting rid of the _metaphysical_ distinction of kind between
    >>morality and prudence, like the one Kant used. In a Deweyan fashion,
    >>Rorty reads morality and prudence as on a continuum. Prudence describes
    >>"familiar and relatively uncontroversial ways in which individuals and
    >>groups adjust to the stresses and strains of their non-human and human
    >>environment." ("Ethics without Principles") Morality, on the other hand,
    >>is invented "when we can no longer just do what comes naturally, when
    >>routine is no longer good enough, or when habit and custom no longer
    >>suffice." (ibid.) On Rorty and Dewey's account, the continuum between
    >>morality and prudence is "the degree of need for conscious deliberation
    >>and explicit formulation of precepts."
    >>The funny thing I find about this whole thing is that I view Pirsig as
    >>entering into this Deweyan pragmatist strain. The way I see it, when
    >>Pirsig makes Quality his reality metaphor he obliterates the distinction
    >>of kind between prudence and morality. He says everything's morality at
    >>one point in Lila. On the other hand, I think Pirsig does make some
    >>metaphysical (read: non-pragmatist) moves that compromise this initial
    >>pragmatist formulation, for instance, the distinction in kind between
    >>social and intellectual.
    >So, if we have to name something as quote "moral", as the "moral thing to
    >do", rather than just usually unconsciously doing it without explicitly
    >formulating anything, then we've entered into a realm of prudence. But I
    >think before, when it was just a static pattern of habit and custom, an
    >unthinking tendency, it was actually truly moral in a descriptive sense, as
    >in the mores of a culture. If people might not do what is expected or
    >habitual, and other people get upset, then what is habitual and expected
    >gets explicitly named as "moral". And as soon as people start talking
    >about it, it becomes a question of prudence, because people demand proof
    >from morality now, it was never really possible to just say "because it is
    >moral", we have always had to give a prudent reason as well (at least, to
    >young, immature rebels. wise people accept pure morality as a valid
    >reason, imo). I think there is a distinction of kind as soon as you start
    >talking about it, and at that point you are on a continuum between named,
    >explicit morality and prudence. But unnamed morality is a real distinction
    >from named morality, and i think it's very insightful of you to make the
    >connection, it is the same "thinking about" distinction that some of us
    >decided was the difference between social and intellectual levels. Perhaps
    >Intellectual level is conscious deliberation and explicit formulation of
    >precepts found at the social level.
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