Re: MD The Quality of removing Saddam Hussein from power.

From: Wim Nusselder (
Date: Sat Apr 19 2003 - 22:36:13 BST

  • Next message: Steve Peterson: "Re: MD The Quality of removing Saddam Hussein from power."

    Dear Sam,

    We are indeed now 'in the position of waiting to see if the intervention
    causes too much suffering', as you wrote 26 Mar 2003 15:16:50 -0000.

    You asked:
    'Should, eg, China be given as many votes as India, when they have
    comparable population levels, even though one is a democracy and one an
    authoritarian state?'

    Starting from a position in which a lot of power resides with
    unrepresentative national governments, it is unrealistic to expect that we
    could jump to any system of global governance which is more representative
    than the average national government. So such a system would start with an
    equal vote per head of the population. In the inevitably indirect system of
    global representation (given the impossibility of direct elections for
    representatives on a global scale at present) governments would have to
    represent their citizens.
    My hope is that it may be possible to enshrine in some sort of constitution
    of the system of global governance the goal of representativeness. The
    gradual implementation of that goal would not only entail the gradual
    joining of extra countries (handing over some of their sovereignty to the
    global government in exchange for a vote proportionate to their number of
    citizens). It would also entail the gradual raising of requirements for
    representativeness of these governments if they want to keep the same amount
    of votes. So China would gradually lose votes if it doesn't show improvement
    the representativeness of its government.

    You said that your understanding of 'grace' is 100% protestant and explained
    that as 'salvation by faith (turning to God) not works'.
    As a Quaker I deny the need for and possibility of a choice between
    'salvation by faith' and 'salvation by works'. Both 'salvation' (freedom of
    'sin' or experiencing unity in God) and 'faith' (trusting divine guidance)
    are meaningless without 'works'. How can one know and show to be 'saved'
    other than by one's works, the way one acts? How can one show and know
    'faith' other than by works? It is not 'first works and then salvation' or
    'first faith and then salvation', but all at once. Salvation is not once and
    for all, but always partial (except for short moments of time), always a
    goal that can be achieved more completely.

    Both social and intellectual patterns of values need 'feeding' (or rather
    maintaining), like biological patterns of value do. You wrote 26 March:
    'So we agree on the framework, we just disagree on what counts as the social
    equivalent of "junk food"? How do you feed your social patterns?'

    Don't you agree that 'blind following of whoever imposes himself as leader'
    is the social equivalent of 'junk food'??
    Democracy would be my equivalent of eating according to accepted dietetic
    Sociocracy (see would be my equivalent of eating organic
    food in a balanced way that not only incorporates most accepted dietetic
    standards but also insights from alternative medicine.
    Theocracy properly understood (as decision making ruled by individual and
    collective search for divine guidance and continuing revelation) would be my
    equivalent of a diet that maintains not only my health (without any need for
    other medical care) but also contributes to the health of other people and
    the health of the ecosystems I am part of.

    Finally you asked 26 March:
    'How do you distinguish between randomly new and new which is DQ?'

    DQ leaves static quality (patterns) in its wake. Coincidence (random change)

    With friendly greetings,


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