Re: MD Undeniable Facts

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Fri Apr 25 2003 - 14:10:26 BST

  • Next message: Platt Holden: "Re: MD What is a living being?"

    Hi Sam,
    > > Not sure what you're driving at, but if you mean the levels are relative
    > to
    > > one another, yes, I agree.
    > That's not quite what I meant. I mean that any given SQ structure can be
    > seen as organised around certain absolutes, or fundamental givens, which
    > operate for as long as that structure continues. A DQ innovation can
    > improve that structure in such a way that what had previously been seen as
    > absolute is now seen as 'absolute until then'. An example follows

    I'll buy that.
    > > But the static patterns at the inorganic and
    > > biological levels are absolute in that they no longer can be affected by
    > > DQ. Pirsig makes the point that now only living beings (referring to
    > > humans) can respond to DQ. Cockroaches have reached the end of their
    > > evolutionary chain.
    > I don't agree with this. It rules out (for example) some future catastrophe
    > which will open up new possibilities of cockroach evolution. What Pirsig
    > says is true for as long as our present system obtains - ie, as long as the
    > present system is taken as the absolute boundary. If that is changed, then
    > the situation changes, and the evolutionary potential changes. How do you
    > understand genetic enhancement? Is that not a DQ innovation in the
    > biological realm, albeit one driven by level 3 and 4 motivations?

    Well, that's fairly hypothetical. When Pirsig says, "Only a living being
    can respond to DQ" I read it as referring to humans, not cockroaches.
    Anyway, if the past is any indication, the fundamental pattern of
    cockroaches will likely survive any future catastrophe. The present
    system will eventually disintegrate in a ball of fire. Then it's back to
    inorganic patterns alone unless biological patterns have taken hold on
    some other rock in the universe (or universes).

    > There was a Wilber quote
    > (something about greatest depth and greatest span) which said something
    > similar, wasn't there? (Although I prefer your envelope language. I speak
    > only from the second hand knowledge gleaned from this list, but Wilber
    > strikes me as something of a windbag....)

    He strikes me that way, too. :-)

    MOQ.ORG -
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 -
    Nov '02 Onward -
    MD Queries -

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Apr 25 2003 - 14:11:55 BST